Circuit Numbers or Loop the Loop

[JoeStillman]

I like to draw my electrical plans with the branch circuit wiring connecting everything (I use AutoCAD splines, others use arcs). Some say this tecnique is obsolete and only show the circuit number beside each device. Which way do you do it?

 

[infinity]

No lines for me. Just a circuit number next to the device. Modern drawing are crowded enough without a bunch of extra unneeded stuff. Besides if the lines are drawn in no electrician I know would ever follow them. If the room has two doors and two 3-way switches I don't need a line with three hashes to know how to wire it.

 

[iwire]

I agree with Rob 100%

 

[jumper]

Ditto to both above.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I agree with the others, I don't see any use for the connecting lines.

 

[Smart $]

I didn't vote. I guess I'm a traditionalist and expect to see the lines, yet I can see pros and cons to either method. I definitely recommend not using instances of both within the same set of plans unless one is used for floor plans, while the other is used for detail drawings, without exception.

The cons to each which stick out in my mind are:

Annotation only: easy to miss conduit or cable runs to same-circuit outlets that are not close to each other; are home runs indicated, and if so, how?

Curvy lines with minimal annotation: hard to discern circuit/switch/etc. in congested areas; some jurisdictions may see these as specified rather than symbolic, i.e. the electrician doesn't have the freedom to change routing, home run grouping or junction location, etc.

 

[mgookin]

Electrical schematics are not intended to show the physical location of conductors; just the flow of electricity.

If the poll asked the occupation of the respondent, it would likely show a correlation. The stakeholders are:
EE
EC
GC
Plans Examiner
Owner
Other engineers and tradesmen
Estimators
Interior Decorators
etc.

My personal preference is the lines. It seems like a quicker "show me don't tell me". With circuit numbers it seems it would compel a lot more going back and forth, searching around, etc.

 

[iwire]

Electrical schematics are not intended to show the physical location of conductors; just the flow of electricity.

I don't think this thread is about schematics, I think it is about floor plans. To me they are not the same thing.


Like Rob the plans I deal with are already crowded with info, extra lines just get in the way.


Sometime plans include detail pages with true schematics which are helpful.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

When the lines between loads are shown on a plan, that implies a conduit or cable routing. Even back when those lines were commonly shown, it was a very rare case where I would run the conduits so that they matched the lines.

 

[JoeStillman]

When the lines between loads are shown on a plan, that implies a conduit or cable routing. Even back when those lines were commonly shown, it was a very rare case where I would run the conduits so that they matched the lines.

I think this is why people stopped drawing them that way. Unless you know what you're doing, you shouldn't draw them. The task of adding up branch circuit loads and filling in panel schedules is often delegated to the least experienced person in the electrical department. Its a rare designer who can imagine what it takes to install branch circuits.

 

[petersonra]

I don't do building plans so this is not quite an answer to your question.

I don't see any reason whatsoever to show how wires are routed from one point to another for field wiring unless there is some special reason it needs to be done in a specific way.

The reality is that 9 times out of ten the guy doing the install will do it his way, and not the way it is on the drawing and it will just make for more drawing updates, if they even bother to mark up the drawings and send them back to you. IME, you would be lucky to find an electrician that actually wires the branch circuits as shown on the prints.

Can't tell you how many times I have shown a panelboard with circuit numbers called out for various field devices and the electrician pretty much just ignored them in favor of doing something else. These days, I am more likely to just give them a list of branch circuits, voltages, and amperages and let them do what they want, because that is what they will do anyway.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
Can't tell you how many times I have shown a panelboard with circuit numbers called out for various field devices and the electrician pretty much just ignored them in favor of doing something else. ...

That is very often the case where multiwire branch circuits were being used. The design would not work with multiwire branch circuits for the most efficient conduit runs, so the installer would often change the circuits around to suit his conduit runs. When I did that, I would try to keep the phase load balance close to what the designer had shown, but many installers did not do that.
Often the specs now prohibit the use of multiwire branch circuits so if that is the case, there is no longer a reason for the installer to change the circuits.

 

[lielec11]

I think this is why people stopped drawing them that way. Unless you know what you're doing, you shouldn't draw them. The task of adding up branch circuit loads and filling in panel schedules is often delegated to the least experienced person in the electrical department. Its a rare designer who can imagine what it takes to install branch circuits.

That is a good point. Even with more experienced designers I often find the contractors calling us up questioning certain circuiting methods etc. which is a perfectly healthy conversation to have. In regards to the original question, I agree with most that the drawing becomes so crowded (especially with healthcare jobs) that it is very hard to read and also make changes. With the numbers you can do a simple find/replace and you're all set.

 

[charlie b]

I really hate the ?spaghetti,? as I like to call the arcs and tick marks. My biggest problem, other than the clutter that others have mentioned, is that it takes engineering time to lay out the arcs, it takes CAD time to put them into the CAD file, it takes more engineering time to check the CAD work, and it takes all that effort all over again every time things change. Given my belief (confirmed by some of you in this thread) that the installer is not going to follow my design layout, but will make their own decisions about how to route the conduit, I consider all of that engineering and CAD time to be a total waste.

I had one client recently who absolutely insisted on my showing the arcs. I refused, but the installing contractor (it was a design/build project so we were on the same team) promised to include the arcs in the as-builts. The client wanted the arcs so that a future maintenance person would know where to go to isolate a problem outlet. They expected the arcs to show the actual conduit paths from outlet to outlet. I could not convince them that that is not likely to be the case.

 

[lielec11]

I could not convince them that that is not likely to be the case.

...the only way they'll learn is when a problem actually occurs down the road and they realize the installing contractor did what was made sense in the field/was cheapest.

 

[steve66]

I really hate the ?spaghetti,? as I like to call the arcs and tick marks. My biggest problem, other than the clutter that others have mentioned, is that it takes engineering time to lay out the arcs, it takes CAD time to put them into the CAD file, it takes more engineering time to check the CAD work, and it takes all that effort all over again every time things change. Given my belief (confirmed by some of you in this thread) that the installer is not going to follow my design layout, but will make their own decisions about how to route the conduit, I consider all of that engineering and CAD time to be a total waste.

I had one client recently who absolutely insisted on my showing the arcs. I refused, but the installing contractor (it was a design/build project so we were on the same team) promised to include the arcs in the as-builts. The client wanted the arcs so that a future maintenance person would know where to go to isolate a problem outlet. They expected the arcs to show the actual conduit paths from outlet to outlet. I could not convince them that that is not likely to be the case.

Wow. We have a routine that draws the arcs and installs the tick marks. It still takes a little longer to draw the arcs, but checking the work is actually faster. You don't have to check every circuit number, you can just take a quick glance and see there are 2 offices per circuit, and 3 homeruns in the break room.....

Obviously, not everyone agrees on what the arcs means. To me, it just means "all these receptacles are connected together." I don't expect the electrician to follow them to the letter, and we have a general note that conduit routing is up to the contractor to determine.

 

[iwire]

Unless compelled too I am going to ignore the routing on a print. Nothing personal about engineers or design professionals, I might ignore my own pre-planning if on the day I go to install it the floor guy is spreading adhesive in that area. Or the tin knockers ran a duct there first etc.

For the most part construction jobs are mix of planning and reacting.

 

[charlie b]

Unless compelled too I am going to ignore the routing on a print. Nothing personal about engineers or design professionals. . . .

Nothing personal taken, at least not on my part. I expect you to know more than I do about routing conduit in the field. That is one of the reasons I don't want to spend any time trying to layout a path for the conduit routing on the floor plans.

Good heavens! Is that really twice on the same day that we have agreed on an issue?:jawdrop::rotflmao:

 

[ActionDave]

For the most part construction jobs are mix of planning and reacting.

That right there belongs in the top ten truest things ever said.

 

[JoeStillman]

It is interesting to me that everyone is referring to the "spaghetti" (I call it that too!) as conduit runs. In my case, it's either MC cable or NM cable. The only time I see EMT for branch circuit wiring is when the circuits are in an exposed space, like a boiler room, or when the contractor decided it was easier for himself. The only Code rule I can think of tha requires a raceway is for emergency circuits in article 517.

Is anybody seeing a lot of branch circuits in conduit these days?