Feed from Meter to OLD Square D box, no visible grounding

[Mr.Chips]

Hello,
Came across and older house remodeled in the 1960's, went to open up an old 100 Amp Square D QOBW-20 box and looked for any grounding, none to be found. There was a single pole 220 feed to baseboard heaters, with no neutral wire on the neutral buss from that circuit, just the two hots, (the heaters didn't work) and a single 15 Amp breaker feeding receptacles, working. The house has Greenfield wiring. The meter is on the outside of the house being fed by a flexible rubber and woven cloth non metallic insulator. The Square D panel is less than 10' away from meter in the basement. There is a 100 Amp disconnect switch in Square D box/panel. There are two meters from the power company outside using the main feed, from what I understand this was done to separate the grand parent's electric bill from the main house bill. There is an old Federal Panel (mounted on a board next to the Square D for the main house) and is grounded properly (1940's) by way of a large rod and #2 wire into the floor. My question is, are they using the neutral in the Square D box/panel, to do the grounding by going back through the meter to the main feed and old Federal box? Was this legal or ever permitted by the NEC? Wanted to run two 20 Amp circuits off this box, since they were only taking up three slots, but not so sure now...
Thank you

 

[ActionDave]

No, it was never legal. Now how often was a set up like yours allowed by a local inspector or overlooked, that is a different matter.

Welcome to the forum. There are a lot of us here with bad eyes. Could you please use the "enter" button on your keyboard once in a while, it makes posts easier to read.

 

[Mr.Chips]

Thank you Action Dave!

Thank you Action Dave!

That is what I thought, thank you for confirming my suspicions. Probably overlooked by the building inspector, as owner was a "friend" of the town. Looks like some correcting will be taking place!

 

[petersonra]

I think before I would want to comment on your situation I would want to see a sketch of what is actually there.

I don't think anything going to the meters is covered by the code since it is likely under the purview of the utility.

I do not know exactly what you mean by "grounded". If you mean there is no connection to earth at all, maybe it does not meet code.

It seems possible that the connection could have been made inside the 2nd meter when it was installed, which might make it OK. Heavy emphasis on the word might.

 

[Mr.Chips]

There is no ground wire going to the panel, plus no ground buss or place to install one. Usually I see a place/space or set of screw holes to add or attach one. The panel is simply fed from the meter, two hots, one neutral. A flexible woven cable with some copper shielding encases the wires feeding the box and stripped back, but not attached to box where wires come in. It is casually making contact with the box, but the paint is not scrapped off to make a good connection, nor is it bonded in any way. Since the shielding seems to end at meter connection, I doubt that there is a return path.

 

[iwire]

There was a single pole 220 feed to baseboard heaters, with no neutral wire on the neutral buss from that circuit, just the two hots, (the heaters didn't work)

I do not understand ... a 220 feed to a baseboard should not have a neutral connection.

The house has Greenfield wiring.

'Greenfield' is slang and I really don't know if you mean FMC, AC or something else.

The meter is on the outside of the house being fed by a flexible rubber and woven cloth non metallic insulator.

Sure sounds like old service entrance cable which is allowed here in Mass.\

The Square D panel is less than 10' away from meter in the basement. There is a 100 Amp disconnect switch in Square D box/panel.

That is a bit long but not unusual for older buildings in Mass. I don't see a code violation in that.

There are two meters from the power company outside using the main feed, from what I understand this was done to separate the grand parent's electric bill from the main house bill.

Where is the panel for this other meter? (Never mind, I see it below)

There is an old Federal Panel (mounted on a board next to the Square D for the main house) and is grounded properly (1940's) by way of a large rod and #2 wire into the floor.

No connection to the water line?

My question is, are they using the neutral in the Square D box/panel, to do the grounding by going back through the meter to the main feed and old Federal box?

Seems like it.

Was this legal or ever permitted by the NEC?

Not that I know of but I have only been dealing with the NEC for 30 years, it has a long history before me.

Wanted to run two 20 Amp circuits off this box, since they were only taking up three slots, but not so sure now...

Do it, I would.

See Mass rule 3 in the front of our amendments.

 

[Mr.Chips]

Thank you Iwire,
I am not familiar with baseboard heating, (mainly electrical for Television and technology) plus coming from sunny Southern California. I have only heard of it. Seeing only a black and white (as hot) was a little odd. The fact that it at some point had to work, led me back to a bad breaker.
Greenfield wiring, in the fact that the house was probably rewired in the 1950's with Flex, replacing the knob and tube. Steel flex conduit, not aluminum. Definitely not a piece of MC aluminum clad in the whole place.
The house is on private well with flexible PVC pipe service into the house. Do not know if it ever had a galvanized or copper service line. Just the grounding rod into the basement floor from what I can see. Looks like a kitchen remodel haphazardly attached a flimsy almost automotive #16 ground wire to the copper plumbing with a hose clamp for the dishwasher???? Definately not a nice bronze clamp with ground lug.
Thank you all for your responses.