Mismatch breakers

[mburkey74]

I'm trying to do my due diligence by researching this topic but I can't dig anything up. Where in black and white does it state you can't mix and match different breakers with different panels even though they may have the same rating and fit in the panel. Thanks for any help guys!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Article 110.3(B) is your reference. BTW welcome to the forum

 

[Jraef]

Article 110.3(B) is your reference. BTW welcome to the forum

To his point, I were mfr A, why would I pay for the very expensive UL testing and listing of mfr B's breakers inside of my panels? To make it more convenient for YOU to NOT buy my breakers? Breakers are where the money is at in that game, the panels are a vehicle, often sold at a loss, to sell more breakers.

What you WILL however find, if you look, is that a number of breaker mfrs will sell a version of their BREAKERS that THEY have had tested and listed with certain (usually high volume) versions of competitor's panels. The point is, you will NOT find that information on the PANELS, but you can sometimes find it with the BREAKERS, if they are so listed. If you are going to do that, get your documents ready when the inspector arrives to prove it on the spot, or pay for a call back, which usually offsets any savings you may have received initially.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

To his point, I were mfr A, why would I pay for the very expensive UL testing and listing of mfr B's breakers inside of my panels? To make it more convenient for YOU to NOT buy my breakers? Breakers are where the money is at in that game, the panels are a vehicle, often sold at a loss, to sell more breakers.

What you WILL however find, if you look, is that a number of breaker mfrs will sell a version of their BREAKERS that THEY have had tested and listed with certain (usually high volume) versions of competitor's panels. The point is, you will NOT find that information on the PANELS, but you can sometimes find it with the BREAKERS, if they are so listed. If you are going to do that, get your documents ready when the inspector arrives to prove it on the spot, or pay for a call back, which usually offsets any savings you may have received initially.

There are many areas in the country that will not accept those breakers. If they want they can use 110.3(B) and there isn't much you can do about it.

I also did not think that that was what the op was asking about. I took him to mean he was putting an siemens regular breaker in , say, a ge panel.

 

[bphgravity]

As the others have stated, circuit breakers are listed for use in certain panelboards. The panelboard will be marked with the list of circuit breakers that have been listed for use with that panelboard. Installing a circuit breaker in a panelboard that is not listed for that panelboard is a violation of the code.

The one exception are classified breakers. Go here for more information on classified breakers: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073985614&sequence=1

For NEMA guidance on circuit breakers: http://www.nema.org/Products/Pages/Molded-Case-Circuit-Breaker-Product-Group.aspx

For NEMA guidance on panelboards: http://www.nema.org/Products/Pages/Panelboards-and-Distribution-Boards-Product-Group.aspx

 

[don_resqcapt19]

This is still where I have an issue with UL...they absolutely insist that everything that is written by the manufacturer is a 110.3(B) instruction, except for the issue of classified breakers, where they say for this purpose you don't have to follow the manufacturer's instructions.

They can't have it both ways.

 

[charlie b]

. . . UL . . . they absolutely insist that everything that is written by the manufacturer is a 110.3(B) instruction

But that is not what the NEC says. This is something I never quite understood. Exactly what instructions is a manufacturer going to include in the listing? When I open a box, I see that it has a set of instructions. Is that the exact same information that the manufacturer provided to the testing lab, when they applied for a listing? If not, then how do I get my hands on a copy of the information, I mean the instructions, that were included in the listing? I do not think we have to comply with all the instructions that are provided in the documents that come in the box, unless those same instructions were included in the listing. But how can we tell?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe it may be written on the panel label. Not certain about that

 

[iwire]

In the case of a panelboard the acceptable breaker types are on a label attached to the panelboard. And that is the problem Don points out. None of these labels indicate classified breakers of other manufacturers are acceptable.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In the case of a panelboard the acceptable breaker types are on a label attached to the panelboard. And that is the problem Don points out. None of these labels indicate classified breakers of other manufacturers are acceptable.

My interpretation is that it will only list the acceptable breakers and they are certainly not going to list someone else's breaker...:lol: To me it is a bit of a joke as I know full well that these breakers will work.

I have seen so many breakers mismatched and never have seen problems with them. Is it any different then a recessed can that say max incandescent luminaire and then we stick a cfl or led in it? I doubt we will ever get a real answer on this.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

But that is not what the NEC says. This is something I never quite understood. Exactly what instructions is a manufacturer going to include in the listing? When I open a box, I see that it has a set of instructions. Is that the exact same information that the manufacturer provided to the testing lab, when they applied for a listing? If not, then how do I get my hands on a copy of the information, I mean the instructions, that were included in the listing? I do not think we have to comply with all the instructions that are provided in the documents that come in the box, unless those same instructions were included in the listing. But how can we tell?

We can't tell, but UL is on record a number of times as saying if the manufacturer wrote it, it is 110.3(B). I had a rather heated discussion about this issue at a class in UL's Northbrook office, but UL insists that everything is 110.3(B).

It is my opinion that the only actual 110.3(B) information is the information that is found in the UL Guide Information (White Book). Everything else is just a recommendation from the the manufacturer, not a listing an labeling instruction.

 

[K8MHZ]

I'm trying to do my due diligence by researching this topic but I can't dig anything up. Where in black and white does it state you can't mix and match different breakers with different panels even though they may have the same rating and fit in the panel. Thanks for any help guys!!

Just because they fit, doesn't mean they are safe. I have in my collection a mismatched 2 pole breaker that is burnt in half. It fell apart in my hands when I tried to turn it off. The part that remained in the panel started arcing and sparking. The stabs on the breaker just barely made contact with the stabs in the panel and eventually led to a near catastrophic failure.

If I get some time today, I will take a picture of it and post it here.

 

[iwire]

Please consider the following.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

It seems to me that regardless of 'instructions
included in the listing' that instructions labeled on the equipment must be followed even if those labels are not part of any listing.

 

[norcal]

Crouse-Hinds used to list competitive makes of breakers allowed in their loadcenters, but since Siemens got them never paid attention if that is still the case but I really doubt it.

 

[kwired]

Midwest often lists several acceptable breakers that can be used in their products that utilize breakers. But they don't make their own breakers. AFAIK they are a subsidiary of GE though, and most of their products that already have breakers installed are GE breakers.


I think I have seen similar on Milbank products, though most factory installed breakers on their equipment is typically Siemens IIRC.