Hi, I am in new jersey and a typical 200 amp service upgrade is around $2,000.00 However, when the 2014 code compliance is adopted, requiring afci breakers throughout almost the entire house, I'm afraid the cost of a service upgrade will be astronomical! Raising the material cost up additionally $800 to $1,000. Is this correct or is there an exception for service upgrades??
Service uprade afci cost increase
- Thread starter pridelion
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
I don't have the 2014 NEC however I have never seen in the code where breakers have ever been required to be 'upgraded'.
arcsnsparks98
Senior Member
- Location
- Jackson, TN USA
NEC only requires an existing breaker to become AFCI (when applicable) if you extend the circuit by six or more feet. As long as you dont move the panel across the room (figuratively speaking) you are good.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
An exception was added in 2014 to 210.12(B) that helps clear up this topic that was questionable before when changing out a panel. If you don't extend the existing branch circuit more then six feet you don't need to add AFCI protection to it. This would also allow you to make minor changes elsewhere in an existing circuit without needing to provide AFCI protection as well as long as you don't extend anything more then six feet.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I occasionally wonder how the inspector would treat it if both ends were extended 3.5 feet? Maybe not even as part of the same job?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Extend one end under one permit, and the other end under another permit, that way you can extend both ends up to six feet.:happyyes:I occasionally wonder how the inspector would treat it if both ends were extended 3.5 feet? Maybe not even as part of the same job?
RICK NAPIER
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
In NJ the Rehab Code, chapter 6 of the UCC, makes it clear in 6.8 that AFCI protection is not needed in a panel or service change. Also in 6.9 it requires AFCI protection on new circuits only and even exempts that requirement if AFCI protection is not available for that panel. It is likely that they will have similarly forgiving rules for the 2014 NEC with rehab work.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
I occasionally wonder how the inspector would treat it if both ends were extended 3.5 feet? Maybe not even as part of the same job?
Would be kinda difficult to extend from a recept or switch box without adding an additional outlet(j box) -- even if you blank the j box that previously held a device it would still be considered an outlet by definition.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I don't agree entirely. A slice box can be an outlet, but in the case of extending a circuit like that, it is just a splice box. The outlet is now at the new end of the extension. Now connect a load at the splice box and you make it an outlet again.
The definition is not specific enough though to say either of us is wrong though, but every box that contains splices could be called an outlet box, and I don't believe that is the intention, I think the main intention is the final transition point from premises wiring to utilization equipment. Some "outlets" are not even in a box but rather are either the last point of attachment to the premises wiring or the line side terminals of the equipment supplied, which one is correct isn't really defined.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.
A blank cover (IMHO) is not utilization equipment. :happyno:
Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric energy
for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating,
lighting, or similar purposes.
Check with your AHJ and get their comment (on paper) if AFCI is required on panel upgrades.
And if AFCI are required on upgrades, don't be afraid of anything. It is required per AHJ, the customer pays for it hence more money in your pocket. I don't think you are afraid of Benjamins, are you?
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes.
A device does not utilize electricity the appliance does -- the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment --- you can blank off all the j boxes you want but they are outlets because it is a point of wiring which current is/can/may be taken to supply utilization equipment. IMHO just becaues you do not install utilization equipment does not change the fact that the j box is a wiring point in which current at anytime is able to supply equipment. By your definition a single pole switch is not an outlet.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Of course we are not afraid of benjamins, the issue is will the customer will pay you for the added cost or pay someone else to bootleg the install.
OR
Take on the probplem of AFCI tripping because of bad wiring and have to explain to the customer you now need to troubleshoot the problems. Have to listen to the customer complaining that the electrical worked in that room what did you do.
It is the customer's business if they take the cheap way out. However, if something happens the installer is stuck with a lawsuit and the insurance probably won't back him up (i don't know).
Before the AFCIs get installed on existing system, I will make a note in my agreement that further troubleshooting may be necessary because of the AFCI breakers and I make sure the customer understands before the work begins.
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Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Yea and the customers just eat that up.
Yes in my own experience some customers don't accept the added cost of troubleshooting there perfectly working house prior to a up grade panel because they need more circuits.
The acceptance is far less than like.
It is very difficult to upsell a upgrade like this.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I think that you make your own best opposition on this point.
An outlet is not a place where current might possibly be taken, it is a point where current is taken.
Now this reading does cause some problems with the mostly accepted classification of a blanked off ceiling box with no fixture attached yet (homeownwer's choice of what to install?) as satisfying the code requirement for a lighting outlet. But I find dealing with that a lot easier than the alternative of every j-box being an outlet.
(BTW, that means that both the receptacle provided under the sink for the disposal and the switch that controls it are outlets, and therefore you are not allowed to use a receptacle GFCI for that circuit since it does not protect the switch.)
Every j-box in a crawl space, attic, or basement (finished or unfinished) would be an outlet and subject to any requirements that are written to apply to outlets and not just receptacle outlets.
Perhaps, in this context, we can rely at least in part on common sense?
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
- Location
- McKinney, Texas
- Occupation
- CEO
I can promise you the North Eastern NEMA Representative and NFPA Eastern Electrical Code Specialists will be working hard to get those amendments removed. Easier to simply follow the NEC as it is written and remove the potential controversy...but hey...It's Jersey Baby
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances,
luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a
part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Now come back later and put a switch in the blanked off box ..... it is not an outlet until it is where current is taken to supply utilization equipment not where it might be taken to supply utilization equipment. Otherwise every point where a splice or uncut loop long enough to splice into occurs in the conductors is an outlet or at least a potential outlet.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
current is taken to supply utilization equipment -- so now we are defining the word "is" as an action and not a physical wiring location. Trying to think of other action related codes that change the definition of the physical properties. New Thread? BTW disposal switch comment interseting.:slaphead:
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