2-wire + ground hot tub panel feeder

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Npstewart

Senior Member
Kind of a basic question but never ran into this before. Just went to a house with a hot tub located outdoors. Existing panel has a 60A/2P CB feeding the new hot tub panel. The new hot tub panel is one of those "all in one" kits that comes with the 2 pole GFCI protected circuit breaker. The feed from the panel to the hot tub panel is (2)#6 Cu + EG (no neutral). I know a GFCI does not need the neutral on the load side to function properly but I would think there should be one from the panel to the hot tub panel. The only question is, where does the neutral pig tail from the GFCI breaker terminate? Only place I can think is under the neutral bus which will not be connected to anything.

The hot tub doesent require the neutral to operate.
 
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GoldDigger

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jumper said:
I could be wrong but IIRC a 2P GFCI needs a line side neutral for the electronics to work.

Too lazy to look it up right now.
Click to expand...
Some particular 2P units were found (in another thread) to require the line side neutral, yes. Whether you could (not compliantly but...) use the EGC for a very low current path for this purpose is an open question. I certainly would not do it for a pool or spa, if I would do it anywhere.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

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Npstewart said:
Kind of a basic question but never ran into this before. Just went to a house with a hot tub located outdoors. Existing panel has a 60A/2P CB feeding the new hot tub panel. The new hot tub panel is one of those "all in one" kits that comes with the 2 pole GFCI protected circuit breaker. The feed from the panel to the hot tub panel is (2)#6 Cu + EG (no neutral). I know a GFCI does not need the neutral on the load side to function properly but I would think there should be one from the panel to the hot tub panel. The only question is, where does the neutral pig tail from the GFCI breaker terminate? Only place I can think is under the neutral bus which will not be connected to anything.

The hot tub doesent require the neutral to operate.
Click to expand...

If at all possible, I would run a new feed to the spa panel, or at least add a neutral if it's in conduit.

My questions are:
Who ran the feed to the spa panel?
Why did they need you (OP) to connect the spa? It seems if they knew enough to run a feed, they could also connect the spa to the disconnect.
Did they honestly think they were saving a ton by leaving out the neutral?


I've hooked up a ton of spas/hot tubs, in fact I just finished one today, and I can't think of one that didn't need a neutral.
Probably only for the LED display or timer but still something needed the neutral.
 
N

Npstewart

Senior Member
I'm sure this does not have a neutral. I'm not hooking up the spa, it's for a friend of mine. He is getting his hot tub repaired and the person who was repairing it would not repair the tub unless there was a GFCI feeding the tub.

The existing spa feeder was put in with the house ( early 80s) and was feeding a below ground type spa, most likely one with no digital controls or LED lights. At some point the previous home owner filled that in and replaced it with an above ground hot tub but rather then re-running the feeder with a neutral they ran it to a fused disconnect which worked fine and it even powered the digital controls. There is a small transformer in the hot tub control panel and I'm assuming the manufacturer brought a low voltage neutral out of the transformer to run the 12v LED display and lights using it.

I'm sure using the EGC would work and prevent the GFCI from tripping however I would never advise anyone to do so although I have definitely seen this done with electric ranges/ovens/ dryers etc. I actually just hooked up a range the other day where they had the neutral and EGC crimped together right out of the box. This however is a giant tub of water with people swimming in it.

Re-running the feeder from the panel to this area would be quite a task cause it's at least a 150 foot run, going under a couple sidewalks.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Haven't seen one that I recall but seen them in catalog - Square D QO series double pole 60 amp GFCI (OP said he had a 60 amp, not sure what manufacturer) is 240 volts only - does not have a neutral connection and can not supply 120/240 loads. Would work just fine for what the OP describes.
 
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Npstewart

Senior Member
kwired said:
Haven't seen one that I recall but seen them in catalog - Square D QO series double pole 60 amp GFCI (OP said he had a 60 amp, not sure what manufacturer) is 240 volts only - does not have a neutral connection and can not supply 120/240 loads. Would work just fine for what the OP describes.
Click to expand...

The 60A/2P CB is a existing square D breaker located in the existing main house panel. The 60A will now be feeding the new 50A/2P spa load center. I believe he bought the one below and bought a 50A/2P GFCI to put in it:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

If anyone knows the part number of the square D 60A/2P GFCI with no neutral, please post. I will call my local square D office to see if they can find it.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Npstewart said:
The 60A/2P CB is a existing square D breaker located in the existing main house panel. The 60A will now be feeding the new 50A/2P spa load center. I believe he bought the one below and bought a 50A/2P GFCI to put in it:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

If anyone knows the part number of the square D 60A/2P GFCI with no neutral, please post. I will call my local square D office to see if they can find it.
Click to expand...
QO260GFI on page 1-3 if you want to view catalog info.

If you don't have a neutral for connecting the GFCI's with neutral to they will not work properly - connecting them to the EGC will make them function - but you know that isn't the correct way to do it, and is even more wrong if you do supply something that utilizes a neutral.

I have experimented before with a Homeline GFCI, disconnecting the neutral would not allow the unit to trip with either the test button or by inserting a load line to unmonitored ground yet it still allowed the two ungrounded lines to pass through - basically leaving the unit as functional as a standard (non GFCI) breaker - I assumed it would still have thermal magnetic trip abilities.
 
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ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Npstewart said:
Kind of a basic question but never ran into this before. Just went to a house with a hot tub located outdoors. Existing panel has a 60A/2P CB feeding the new hot tub panel. The new hot tub panel is one of those "all in one" kits that comes with the 2 pole GFCI protected circuit breaker. The feed from the panel to the hot tub panel is (2)#6 Cu + EG (no neutral). I know a GFCI does not need the neutral on the load side to function properly but I would think there should be one from the panel to the hot tub panel. The only question is, where does the neutral pig tail from the GFCI breaker terminate? Only place I can think is under the neutral bus which will not be connected to anything.

The hot tub doesent require the neutral to operate.
Click to expand...

Like the others said you need one on the line side of the GFCI.

If the tub does have a insulated neutral buss run your neutral
to it.
If not, run the neutral to the tub and hook your breaker neutral
with a blue or gray wire nut.
 
R

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Npstewart said:
If there is no neutral bus where would I hook it on the tub?
Click to expand...

I was assuming the GFCI in the spa had a line side neutral, if nothing else a coiled white
conductor coming from the breaker which would be your line side neutral,thats what I
was saying to wire nut your neutral to.

The line side neutral has to be insulated from the ground.

If the breaker does not have a place to land or hook a neutral then it probably does not require a neutral.
 
R

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Npstewart said:
A picture is worth...
Click to expand...

I see, I think it would work to put the Neutral pigtail on the EG. Bar.

But I sure wouldn't do it. A neutral is a neutral and should be floating
all the way to its end to make it NEC compliant.And if you did and some one
got hurt you would be up the creek without a paddle.

I would pull a neutral between the main box and the spa panel.

Hook the pigtail to and neutral to the insulated neutral bar in the spa panel
and stop it there.

And if there is no 120 volts loads I would not pull a neutral to the spa.
the Eg. Ground will take care of the faults.

Just be sure that pigtail is the line side of that GFCI breaker.

Ronald :)
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
GoldDigger said:
How about just putting a GFCI feeder breaker in the upstream panel?
Click to expand...

And remember that if you still use the GFCI in the spa panel it will not have a neutral and likely will not provide any GFCI protection. It still can be used as the local disconnecting means, though something less expensive would have worked as well.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Npstewart said:
The 60A/2P CB is a existing square D breaker located in the existing main house panel. The 60A will now be feeding the new 50A/2P spa load center. I believe he bought the one below and bought a 50A/2P GFCI to put in it:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
Click to expand...

That panel in the link is a Spa disconnect with a 50A GFCI in it. I use that all the time.

Here's a trade secret........
If you ever need just a 50A GFCI, buy this and take out the GFCI. It's cheaper than buying a GFCI by its self!:thumbsup:
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Little Bill said:
That panel in the link is a Spa disconnect with a 50A GFCI in it. I use that all the time.

Here's a trade secret........
If you ever need just a 50A GFCI, buy this and take out the GFCI. It's cheaper than buying a GFCI by its self!:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Only if you need/can use a BR series GFCI breaker:p Existing panel that isn't interchangeable 1 inch wide breakers and code doesn't even matter, it will not work - without some modifications anyway.
 
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