Securing Conductors with wire

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xguard

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I don't like this. It's conductors in a panel being pulled back and held in place using metal wire. It seems like it's asking for trouble. Other than components being used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, is there another NEC article that deals with this? I'm taking the position it's terrible. Any opposing views?

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Your only hope is 110.12 (2012)
110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Electrical equipment
shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
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But that is wide open to interpretation. While I agree with you my main concern would be the vibration of the conductors. Over time the tie wires could cut through the insulation.
 
Well, to eliminate some possible problems, it looks like there is a section of rope of twine in each loop, eliminating the already unliky chance of an induction problem. And the wire itself seems to be insulated, reducing the cutting or abrasion issue.
The only remaining objection I see, as long as listed or recognized components are not required, would be the tensile strength of the copper wire.
 
GoldDigger said:
Well, to eliminate some possible problems, it looks like there is a section of rope of twine in each loop, eliminating the already unliky chance of an induction problem. And the wire itself seems to be insulated, reducing the cutting or abrasion issue.
The only remaining objection I see, as long as listed or recognized components are not required, would be the tensile strength of the copper wire.
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I'm not sure where you are seeing twine. It's insulated solid copper wire that the insulation has been torn off of I'm assuming by fishing it through the holes in the panel.
 
xguard said:
I'm not sure where you are seeing twine. It's insulated solid copper wire that the insulation has been torn off of I'm assuming by fishing it through the holes in the panel.
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In the upper loop in the photo I assumed that the mixture of black and orange strands was twine or poly rope. Are you saying that it is multi conductor cable with the sheath torn off?
In the lower loop there is a set of fine dark gray strands. Are they discolored tinned stranded wire? It certainly does not look like solid copper to me!

Optical illusion?
 
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GoldDigger said:
In the upper loop in the photo I assumed that the mixture of black and orange strands was twine or poly rope. Are you saying that it is multi conductor cable with the sheath torn off?
In the lower loop there is a set of fine dark gray strands. Are they discolored tinned stranded wire? It certainly does not look like solid copper to me!

Optical illusion?
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What you are seeing looks like #12 solid black THHN. The black insulation is busted exposing the copper. What you are calling gray strands is the clear slick coating over the insulation.
 
mjf said:
Not sure what the code reference is offhand, but I believe the unless those holes the wire is passing through are designed for mounting purposes they must be properly sealed.
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I don't know that I can agree with that, maybe if the enclosure were something other then NEMA 1 rating - then you have something to go on with breaking the rating of the enclosure, but NEMA 1 enclosures can have all kinds of holes in them that don't get sealed or used in some way.

Keyhole shaped openings are a good example even for a hole that does get used for some function - do you see inspectors requiring sealing the remaining opening in such a hole?
 
xguard said:
I don't like this. It's conductors in a panel being pulled back and held in place using metal wire. It seems like it's asking for trouble. Other than components being used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, is there another NEC article that deals with this? I'm taking the position it's terrible. Any opposing views?

Photo attachment
Click to expand...
Do you have any objection to using stainless steel cable ties for similar purposes? They are more specifically designed or even listed for such use, yet have just as much if not more potential to harm the conductor insulation. Can you cite a code section that says conductor supports in such a situation need be listed or designed for the purpose? Outside of that it is nothing more then a workmanship judgement call.
 
kwired said:
Do you have any objection to using stainless steel cable ties for similar purposes? They are more specifically designed or even listed for such use, yet have just as much if not more potential to harm the conductor insulation. Can you cite a code section that says conductor supports in such a situation need be listed or designed for the purpose? Outside of that it is nothing more then a workmanship judgement call.
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No I can't cite a code section, that's what I was orignally asking for. Do you have a link for a stainless steel cable tie like you are suggesting? To me something like that, if used correctly, seems better than what they have installed now. In general, using something made for a particular purpose tends to take less "judgement" than inventing a solution on the fly with whatever materials you have laying around. Certainly though I've been guilty of getting tunnelvision once I think something isn't right, so I was interested in what others thought of this.
 
xguard said:
No I can't cite a code section, that's what I was orignally asking for. Do you have a link for a stainless steel cable tie like you are suggesting? To me something like that, if used correctly, seems better than what they have installed now. In general, using something made for a particular purpose tends to take less "judgement" than inventing a solution on the fly with whatever materials you have laying around. Certainly though I've been guilty of getting tunnelvision once I think something isn't right, so I was interested in what others thought of this.
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There are many out there take your pick
 
You could compromise with them.
Have them take the #12 Solid that's already run through the holes, cut it short, and twist a small loop close to the panel can.
Then take a large plastic zip tie through the loop you just made in the solid wire and pull slack out to secure wires back with what is now an insulated tie .

Problem solved.:)
 
kwired said:
I don't know that I can agree with that, maybe if the enclosure were something other then NEMA 1 rating - then you have something to go on with breaking the rating of the enclosure, but NEMA 1 enclosures can have all kinds of holes in them that don't get sealed or used in some way.

Keyhole shaped openings are a good example even for a hole that does get used for some function - do you see inspectors requiring sealing the remaining opening in such a hole?
Click to expand...


In looking at the picture, I believed the holes were drilled by the installer and thought 110.12 might apply.


110.12
(A) Unused Openings. Unused openings, other than those
intended for the operation of equipment, those intended for
mounting purposes, or those permitted as part of the design
for listed equipment, shall be closed to afford protection
substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment.
Where metallic plugs or plates are used with nonmetallic
enclosures, they shall be recessed at least 6 mm ( 1 ? 4 in.)
from the outer surface of the enclosure.
 
mjf said:
In looking at the picture, I believed the holes were drilled by the installer and thought 110.12 might apply.


110.12
(A) Unused Openings. Unused openings, other than those
intended for the operation of equipment, those intended for
mounting purposes, or those permitted as part of the design
for listed equipment, shall be closed to afford protection
substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment.
Where metallic plugs or plates are used with nonmetallic
enclosures, they shall be recessed at least 6 mm ( 1 ? 4 in.)
from the outer surface of the enclosure.
Click to expand...
The only problem that I see with that argument is that these openings are being used. Just not to hold fittings. :)
 
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