Pool Panel Feeder

[mkgrady]

I'm wiring a complete home renovation. Part of the renovation includes a swimming pool. I need to run a feed from the main panel to a pool subpanel that will be mounted outside on an outside wall of the home. The pool electrician will provide and install the pool subpanel and all the circuits needed for the pool. The pool electrician said the feeder MUST be in conduit (I want to use Romex) I don't see that anywhere in the NEC. Is he right, and if so, where can I find that requirement in 680? I don't know if it matters but there is a meter/main feeding what i am calling the main panel, so technically the pool is being fed from a subpanel.

I would just give the guy the circuit in conduit as the work is T&M but the route is already jam packed with an amazing amount of wires and radiant heat pipes. There just isn't any cost effective way to put this run in conduit and I don't want to waste the customers money if not needed.

 

[augie47]

680.25

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.25 seems clear

680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder
on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits
for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on
the load side of the service equipment or the source of a
separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(1) Feeders. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit
or intermediate metal conduit. The following wiring methods
shall be permitted if not subject to physical damage:
(1) Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit
(2) Rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit
(3) Reinforced thermosetting resin conduit
(4) Electrical metallic tubing where installed on or within a
building

 

[petersonra]

The other day I was watching This Old House. The electrician ran NM out to a junction box on the outside of the house and then transitioned to some kind of flex and wires to another box that had a twist lock receptacle in it that the pool pump plugged into.

That would appear to be a BC and not a feeder though.

I was a little surprised he ran NM into the box located on the outside though. Seems like that would be a "wet" area inside the box.

 

[mkgrady]

680.25

Thanks for that. Given that conduit will be extremely difficult to run I guess I will consider MC cable 680.A,1(6).

 

[augie47]

The other day I was watching This Old House. The electrician ran NM out to a junction box on the outside of the house and then transitioned to some kind of flex and wires to another box that had a twist lock receptacle in it that the pool pump plugged into.

That would appear to be a BC and not a feeder though.

I was a little surprised he ran NM into the box located on the outside though. Seems like that would be a "wet" area inside the box.

It would be a violation of 680.21(A)(4) as well as 334.12(B)(4)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see the violation if this is a SF dwelling

680.21(A)(4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of dwelling
units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated
with a dwelling unit, any of the wiring methods recognized
in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions
of this section shall be permitted. Where run in a cable
assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted
to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the
outer sheath of the cable assembly

 

[Dennis Alwon]

NM is allowed outside in a box it is not allowed in a raceway. If you weren't allowed to run nm outside into a box then there would be an issue with every residential panel that is installed outdoors. I am sure the overcurrent protective device are not rated for wet location or damp location so the inside of the panels or jb's are not considered wet or damp.

 

[augie47]

I don't see the violation if this is a SF dwelling

Thanks for watching my back. I misread and pictured the NM being run outside to the box.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks for watching my back. I misread and pictured the NM being run outside to the box.

No problem. I had to read it twice to make sure also.

 

[mkgrady]

I don't see the violation if this is a SF dwelling

Now I'm confused. The installation of the pool panel feeder is in a SF dwelling. Does that mean I can use Romex to feed the pool sub panel?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Now I'm confused. The installation of the pool panel feeder is in a SF dwelling. Does that mean I can use Romex to feed the pool sub panel?

Sorry-- No. we were talking about a branch circuit that peterson mentioned. You need to run conduit or mc as you stated earlier

 

[mkgrady]

Sorry-- No. we were talking about a branch circuit that peterson mentioned. You need to run conduit or mc as you stated earlier

Thank you Dennis.

 

[jap]

The other day I was watching This Old House. The electrician ran NM out to a junction box on the outside of the house and then transitioned to some kind of flex and wires to another box that had a twist lock receptacle in it that the pool pump plugged into.

That would appear to be a BC and not a feeder though.

I was a little surprised he ran NM into the box located on the outside though. Seems like that would be a "wet" area inside the box.

I saw this too and thought the exact same thing you did.
I thought we decided here a long time ago that the portion of the romex between the outside of the siding and the back of the box was a wet location regardless of whether it was a branch circuit of a feeder.

I remember someone saying that here a while back and I thought what he did was a violation also.

Now we're saying no? that the drilling a hole from the basement and running romex into the back of a WP box outside is not a wet location for that 1/8th of an inch or less

oh no,,,,,

JAP>

 

[JDB3]

Is there any particular reason why the run for a pool equipment panel needs to be in conduit, other than the code says so. The reasoning for this is _______________________?:?

 

[augie47]

Is there any particular reason why the run for a pool equipment panel needs to be in conduit, other than the code says so. The reasoning for this is _______________________?:?

Because one of the Code Making Panel members works for Allied Tubing

I can't say that I honestly know but I have been told that it was to facilitate then replacement of the grounding conductor in the event of damage by lightning which apparently is more likely on a pool. I can not verify the validity of that, only state that is was the reason given in one of the 100 Code classes I've attended and not slept thru.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I also think the reason is to protect the feeder from damage. Interesting that the pool motor circuit , however, does not require that same protection.

 

[JDB3]

Thanks Augie & Dennis. Just seems as though trying to sell material is _________________. I guess people think more of their pool than power to their house by way of sub panels, circuits, etc. But, perhaps I should keep quite, or else we will be required to do single family dwelling in "rigid metallic or IMC".

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Well...the problem with your desire to want to run Type NM Cable is the "insulated" equipment grounding conductor statement within the Exception. Now, if you could find a Type NM with an insulated EGC then you may be all set....but we don't make it stock......it can be made but you would need to buy in mass quantities to make it economical...so with that said....I agree 680.25(A)(6) is your best option.

 

[jazer]

I also think the reason is to protect the feeder from damage. Interesting that the pool motor circuit , however, does not require that same protection.

680.21 (A)(1)

2011 Code