POCO Bad Neutral Fix?

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Ken9876

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I was at my parent?s house today and noticed some pretty significant flickering going on with the lights throughout the house. A quick check at the main L1 ?N 119V, L2 ?N 128, current on L1, L2 & N didn?t add up, found 4 amps on the coax and 2 amps on the GEC. POCO responded and verified the neutral was bad to the transformer. Guy said he would be back with a device that would temporarily fix the problem until they were able to come out and locate the faulty underground cable. So my question is what is the POCO going to connect to fix the problem?
 
Ken9876 said:
I was at my parent?s house today and noticed some pretty significant flickering going on with the lights throughout the house. A quick check at the main L1 ?N 119V, L2 ?N 128, current on L1, L2 & N didn?t add up, found 4 amps on the coax and 2 amps on the GEC. POCO responded and verified the neutral was bad to the transformer. Guy said he would be back with a device that would temporarily fix the problem until they were able to come out and locate the faulty underground cable. So my question is what is the POCO going to connect to fix the problem?
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Hope it's not the "beast of burden" essentially a transformer in which they connect to the meterbase where they can use it either create a neutral point or produce opposite phase by utilizing the good one. Great care must be taken with a failing neutral as it can place more current draw across phone/cable shielding and grounding to the point it could cause a fire.
 
In the interim (until POCO fixes the problem) I would disconnect anything electronic so that they don't get toasted. Most CATV companies want less than 1 amp on their coax cables or they'll disconnect the service. There have been many discussions on this forum about losing that neutral and the damage it causes, even if it's only for a split second.
 
Ken9876 said:
I was at my parent?s house today and noticed some pretty significant flickering going on with the lights throughout the house. A quick check at the main L1 ?N 119V, L2 ?N 128, current on L1, L2 & N didn?t add up, found 4 amps on the coax and 2 amps on the GEC. POCO responded and verified the neutral was bad to the transformer. Guy said he would be back with a device that would temporarily fix the problem until they were able to come out and locate the faulty underground cable. So my question is what is the POCO going to connect to fix the problem?
Click to expand...

Got called to a friends parents house , out building was blowing lt bulbs and things were all crazy. Checked L1-G around 90 volts ,L2-G 150-160 . Please excuse my memory this was20+ years ago. Building had a frost proof hydrant near the panel. I used a set of jumper cables to tie Neu lug to Gnd of hydrant. direct bury cable failed between house and out building. would be interested to know "temp fix"details.
 
cpblock said:
Got called to a friends parents house , out building was blowing lt bulbs and things were all crazy. Checked L1-G around 90 volts ,L2-G 150-160 . Please excuse my memory this was20+ years ago. Building had a frost proof hydrant near the panel. I used a set of jumper cables to tie Neu lug to Gnd of hydrant. direct bury cable failed between house and out building. would be interested to know "temp fix"details.
Click to expand...
With no way to run a temporary neutral wire, the only other solution is a humongous autotransformer to split the difference between L1 and L2 to make a virtual neutral. There will be more VD than with a solid neutral, but it should be good enough.
 
cpblock said:
Got called to a friends parents house , out building was blowing lt bulbs and things were all crazy. Checked L1-G around 90 volts ,L2-G 150-160 . Please excuse my memory this was20+ years ago. Building had a frost proof hydrant near the panel. I used a set of jumper cables to tie Neu lug to Gnd of hydrant. direct bury cable failed between house and out building. would be interested to know "temp fix"details.
Click to expand...
Shut the power off and fix it is the better choice. Not worth staying out all night to get the power back on..... Well then it not really that big of deal is it?

The problem with temporary fixes that are too elegant is that they increase the likelihood of staying in service beyond their intended life span.

Jumper cables to the water pipe might not even be hokey enough. Where are they now??? Still hooked to water faucet or back in the car trunk?
 
Ken9876 said:
POCO responded and verified the neutral was bad to the transformer. Guy said he would be back with a device that would temporarily fix the problem until they were able to come out and locate the faulty underground cable. So my question is what is the POCO going to connect to fix the problem?
Click to expand...


This is pretty much standerd operateing proceedure for the utility companies.They do it all the time and I haven't herd of any problems.

I think they use a transformer but if I remember correctly they normaly say you won't have full power until the problem is corrected.

The good thing is that when they get around to fixing the problem it may even mean a completely new cable. Around here in areas where the underground cables are gettting really old they decided just to replace them over a period of time. If you have a problem you can get bumped up on the list for replacement.

Unless it was cut I think most of the burned neutrals were in areas of old cable.
 
Sounds like the POCO installed a transformer, I'm going to swing by when I get a chance and check. I understand why they did this, way too much regulation to just come out in the middle of the night and start digging. The POCO guy wouldn't even reset the meter until he came back with the transformer.
 
mopowr steve said:
Hope it's not the "beast of burden" essentially a transformer in which they connect to the meterbase where they can use it either create a neutral point or produce opposite phase by utilizing the good one. Great care must be taken with a failing neutral as it can place more current draw across phone/cable shielding and grounding to the point it could cause a fire.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm....I don't know where you get your info, but the actual "Beast of Burden" is a device that loads each leg of a service separately to indicate voltage drop. Consists of a couple of "hair dryer" type heating coils, associated fans, and a couple of voltmeters for measuring loaded voltage on each leg to neutral. Usually 30A max. The "Mega Beast" is the same idea with an 80A max. It's only function is to test a service to see voltage drops related to load. If you apply load to one line and voltage drops significantly on the unloaded leg remains relatively unchanged, you have a phase impedance problem. If you load one leg and the unloaded leg increases in voltage, you have a neutral impedance problem. That's all they can do. Just a load and a couple of voltmeters.
 
OOPS...forget the above reply!

OOPS...forget the above reply!

Oops..original reply made no sense. Wife interrupted me in the middle of my techno-babble. This is what I meant.....

I don't know where you get your info, but the actual "Beast of Burden" is a device that loads each leg of a service separately to indicate voltage drop. Connects to the load side of the service with alligator clip jumpers. Consists of a couple of "hair dryer" type heating coils, associated fans, and a couple of voltmeters for measuring loaded voltage on each leg to neutral. Usually 30A max. The "Mega Beast" is the same idea with an 80A max. It's only function is to test a service to see voltage drops related to load. If you apply load to one line and voltage drops significantly but the unloaded leg remains relatively unchanged, you have a phase problem. If you load one leg and it's voltage drops while the unloaded leg increases in voltage, you have a neutral problem. That's all they can do. Just a load and a couple of voltmeters.
 
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ActionDave said:
Shut the power off and fix it is the better choice. Not worth staying out all night to get the power back on..... Well then it not really that big of deal is it?

The problem with temporary fixes that are too elegant is that they increase the likelihood of staying in service beyond their intended life span.

Jumper cables to the water pipe might not even be hokey enough. Where are they now??? Still hooked to water faucet or back in the car trunk?
Click to expand...

New service was installed to out building as soon as bad NEU was diagnosed. Oh by the way thanks for your confidence. IBEW member since 1990 !
 
cpblock said:
New service was installed to out building as soon as bad NEU was diagnosed. Oh by the way thanks for your confidence. IBEW member since 1990 !
Click to expand...
Can't tell if you are mad at me or not.

My post was not a slap at your knowledge and ability, it was the phrase
would be interested to know "temp fix"details.
Click to expand...
that caught my attention.

Temp fixes can too often become permanent because once the power is back on the drive and intensity to make things right fades...that's all I was saying.
 
growler said:
This is pretty much standerd operateing proceedure for the utility companies.They do it all the time and I haven't herd of any problems.

I think they use a transformer but if I remember correctly they normaly say you won't have full power until the problem is corrected.

The good thing is that when they get around to fixing the problem it may even mean a completely new cable. Around here in areas where the underground cables are gettting really old they decided just to replace them over a period of time. If you have a problem you can get bumped up on the list for replacement.

Unless it was cut I think most of the burned neutrals were in areas of old cable.
Click to expand...




Well hear it is, you get to hear of a problem that actually happened to one of our jobs.
A customer was having problem with power so they called PoCo and they used that "transformer on the dolly" it was late evening and the service guy found one of the legs of underground lateral failed so he hooked it up as he didn't have time or help to pull in a new line. Several days went by, then a fire broke out near the service equipment outside. Luckily the home owner was home and was Ok but shook up as she saw sparks and fire thru her window under the the meter-base it eventually went up the wall outside then into the attic. Well a full out investigation happened with attorneys, insurance companies, inspectors and electrical professionals. Pretty hairy stuff!

I requested to have the lateral dug up durring an on site investigation to find out more about why they had a problem and it was found that a rodent had followed the underground PVC conduit chewing the cable exposing the aluminum to water/elements until it oxidized to the point of failure and that it had built a nest in the meterbase as one of the PoCo guys told me.

What they didn't realize was that the neutral was also compromised and when the homeowner did laundry it must have put enough load coupled with the increased load of recreating the faulty leg with the transformer it put an excessive current on the grounding system and the cable/phone shielding which initiated a fire in their demarcation boxes below the meter. The fire then burnt into the service lateral that's when the sparks really started to fly which is what she saw.

So yeah, that transformer on a dolly needs to be used with great caution. After talking to friend that worked for another PoCo about the incident he called it the Beast of Burden hence its use. And that they definatly need to be used with great caution when the actual condition of a cable is not known.
 
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