BE HONEST!

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rlundsrud

Senior Member
Location
chicago, il, USA
mwm1752 said:
I'm sure we'll go around on this & maybe never agree but I can interprete 404.9(B) as promoting more than 1 statement;

(B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor and shall provide a means to connect metal faceplates to the equipment grounding conductor, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered to be part of an effective ground-fault current path if either of the following conditions is met:
1 - Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.
2 - shall provide a means to connect metal faceplates to the equipment grounding conductor.
Code Commentary
Sections 404.9(B)(1) and (B)(2) describe conditions under which the switch provides an effective ground fault current path to a metal cover plate. See Exhibit 404.1 for an example of the typical method by which a metal faceplate is grounded.

If you put any value on code commentary then 404.9(B)(1) and (B)(2) are specific for the metal plate cover. They make all sorts of snap switches which include a device which is specially designed to bond to a box thru the 6-32 screw. Why would that be in production if any old mounting screw would work for bonding the yoke? I guess we woild go to the installation instructions on this.
Click to expand...

I will weigh in on this, if you use metal conduit, fittings listed for grounding, and metal boxes, then grounding through the yoke of the switch is ok. The conduit, fitting, and box constitute your EGC. If a seperate EGC is installed, then that would need to be used as it supercedes the conduit EGC.
 
ActionDave

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Strathead said:
Funny story. That is why I like Greenlee. Years ago I had one of those Greenlee voltage testers that was black and yellow with the red LED's that lit up from 12 to 480 volts I think. Anyway, I was testing a switch when I blew the tip off the hand held lead:ashamed1:. It is hard wired and soldered in but I knew I could replace it if I could find the lead. I called Greenlee and the tech says, "Send it in we warrant them for life as long as they aren't abused." To which I replied, "I kind of think shorting it out against the side of a box is abuse." His response, " You didn't take it outside and drive over it with you truck afterwards, did you?" :lol:
Click to expand...
I still have one of those. They quit making them. The new style is not near as good.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
As Bob's post shows you only need to connect the switch to a ground metal box with the two mounting screws for it to be code compliant. A bonding jumper is not required.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
ActionDave said:
If the switch is in a metal box I don't. Fiber and plastic boxes I do.
Click to expand...

same here........(sometimes in metal box too)

how about tighten down all unused screws... (receptacles,switches)?? Burns my buns when I see the device screws out..

How's about on neutral/ground bars when they are not tightened down? Is that part of tighten all unused screws?


not to get off the switch grounding..
 
S

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
ritelec said:
same here........(sometimes in metal box too)

how about tighten down all unused screws... (receptacles,switches)?? Burns my buns when I see the device screws out..

How's about on neutral/ground bars when they are not tightened down? Is that part of tighten all unused screws?


not to get off the switch grounding..
Click to expand...

Ground/neutral bar screws that aren't tightened down aren't likely to short to the device next to them or the side of the box and cause the magic smoke to be let out. :) I do agree that all screws on devices should be screwed down, used or not.


SceneryDriver
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Inspectors around here check for missing grounds on switch yokes with a non contact voltage tester. You don't have to remove wall plates, just turn the switch on and hold the tester up close to the switch. If it beeps/lights up, you didn't ground the switch yoke.

They check metal frames luminaires the same way - no removing canopies, covers, etc. just hold tester to a metal portion of the luminaire - no EGC it will beep or light up. If items tested are grounded they don't hold a charge from capacitive coupling.

I have only once had a luminaire fail this test and we could not figure out why, because the luminaire was bonded - and the EGC even would carry a test current when introducing one - inspector let it go after further examination.
 
electricalist

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Oh how i love when these questions are asked...
Most of my work was in resi. We didnt ground switches when i started then code or AHJ changed and we left the hot in /hr about 12 in so we could wrap the ground from one switch to another without a splice,,that didnt fly for long. I didnt like it because i got shocked when i usually wouldnt.
Here on a final a j man is required to be on site with a ladder or its a red tag ,,,inspector wont even get out of the truck..Jman will open everything inspector wants and they dont mind having him open every 4 gang in the house.
Often on here someone will ask about grounding methods and depending on who answers will determine if the poster gets ,,,,no you dont need a ground to the device or yes its required and they may both be correct if the question doesnt define the grounding method up to the device. My supervisor will quote every code on yes you need a device bonding jumper and ill reply it ll be fine i didnt pull a wire ground anyway,,,,oh the fun we have....
 
electricalist

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
No i dont put a ground wire to a device unless my grounding method requires it...miles of wire grounding conductors,gounding jumpers and man hrs are waisted on feel better grounding methods.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't know what year the rule changed (maybe 1999 or 2002), but it used to be that the yoke of a snap switch did not need to be bonded if it were going to have a non conductive cover plate. After the change they are always required to be bonded even if completely isolated from the user like say a PVC box with PVC cover with no screws that thread into the switch yoke. Possibly unnecessary in that example, but that is how it is worded.
 
electricalist

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
All the great history and knowledge and all i wanna do is check switches and lights with my non contact tester to see if it can tell if its grounded
 
electricalist

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Mr. Kwired,,if the device,switch doesnt have a bond to the egc then a non contact tester will alert at the switch with the plate on? Correct. Same for a light fixture? This would imply so trivial amount of voltage on what should be grounded or is it something else.
Please explain.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
electricalist said:
Mr. Kwired,,if the device,switch doesnt have a bond to the egc then a non contact tester will alert at the switch with the plate on? Correct. Same for a light fixture? This would imply so trivial amount of voltage on what should be grounded or is it something else.
Please explain.
Click to expand...
Capacitve coupling - which is what NCV testers work on in the first place. Try it - I have only had one time that I can recall that did not give expected results - and never figured out why on that one.

Take a four gang box with switches in it and leave one non bonded - that one will trigger the NCVT. Try it with load on as well as off, you may get different feedback, but if the yoke is bonded - almost never will get a "hot" indication. Not saying you will always catch a non bonded yoke, but will almost never get a "hot" yoke that is bonded. Same goes for lighting fixtures - you may get a "hot" metal piece that is intentionally isolated - but if it is a listed luminaire - you are not in any code violation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top