Duplex receptacle inside fire alarm panel

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Duplex receptacle inside fire alarm panel

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 66.7%

  • No

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Total voters
    6
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dhalleron

dhalleron

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, KY
Had a friend who owns and alarm company call me today. One of his employees installed a receptacle in a handy box inside a Firelite fire alarm panel. He tapped off the 120V feeding the alarm panel. He used the receptacle to plug in a Telular TG7 series fire alarm GSM radio.

My friend and I both don't think this is proper but his employee is arguing that it is. I first said you are the president of the company, tell him how you want it done...

I started by looking in the TG7 installation manual and it just says the TG7 transformer shall be plugged into a receptacle inside of a listed pull box. This is so the transformer can't easily be unplugged.

I figure somewhere in the Firelite documentation or the NEC there might be something that addresses this.

Can the receptacle be installed inside the alarm panel like this?
 
LEO2854

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
dhalleron said:
Had a friend who owns and alarm company call me today. One of his employees installed a receptacle in a handy box inside a Firelite fire alarm panel. He tapped off the 120V feeding the alarm panel. He used the receptacle to plug in a Telular TG7 series fire alarm GSM radio.

My friend and I both don't think this is proper but his employee is arguing that it is. I first said you are the president of the company, tell him how you want it done...

I started by looking in the TG7 installation manual and it just says the TG7 transformer shall be plugged into a receptacle inside of a listed pull box. This is so the transformer can't easily be unplugged.

I figure somewhere in the Firelite documentation or the NEC there might be something that addresses this.

Can the receptacle be installed inside the alarm panel like this?
Click to expand...

If there is room I don't see why not, you are Feeding it with 120 volts
 
dhalleron

dhalleron

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, KY
I don't see why not either but I feel it is not proper. Just haven't found something to back it up. If I were the inspector I wouldn't fail it without quoting the code it violated. It might even be a small technicality. Fire Alarm Code states you have to follow manufacturers instructions so it could be something minor like that. The instructions say the transformer has to be in a listed pull box. Does a fire alarm panel count?
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
charlie b said:
Aren't you thereby altering a listed component? Would that not violate the listing?
Click to expand...

Well I already punched holes in the FACP to run my conduits in, I don't see a couple more holes to secure a box containing a receptacle a deal breaker.

It also depends on the FACP cabinet, some have no room at all for extra parts while others have a ton of extra space to fit something like a receptacle in.
 
N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Charlie is right.

To do it right nipple off adjacent to the panel from the outlet in a box and feed the panel line voltage from it, provided you follow the communicators instructions. The LV radio power would need to be in conduit, typically flex to simply the install around the FACP.

It violates the UL Listing of the panel. Id bet the FACP instructions don't have a provision for NPLF circuits to occupy where ever you put it, even if it's sleeved or NM. the diagramic wire paths in the manual are UL requirements.

More importantly the instructions of the radio will require conduit between the transformer enclosure (instructions say UL listed 8x8 pull box, kinda oddly worded) and the tg-7fs enclosure. The FACP enclosure is not a 'pull box' and I'm sure I'm also missing other UL issues with this.

UL requires the transformer to be protected like this, Honeywells equivilant has its own little metal box that goes over the outlet. It also requires conduit (yes conduit) between the transformer and the FACP. Also UL says it must be within 20' of conduit, in the same room, but that's just bonus info.
 
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N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
iwire said:
Well I already punched holes in the FACP to run my conduits in
Click to expand...

...... And that violates the UL listing, I know it's a minor technicality but ypu cannot make field KO's in panels unless the manual allows it (factory only) I watched an old boss swap a cabinet due to this... Inspector actually had UL864 with him and literally through the book at him.

I'm sure you've done it a lot, I'm guilty too but try to avoid it at all costs with troughs.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
nhfire77 said:
...... And that violates the UL listing, .
Click to expand...

Now to me we are getting a bit carried away here

ULs position is that you cannot void or violate a listing and that it is up to the AHJ to determine if the modifications are enough to warrant a UL field evaluation. This info can be found in the white book.
 
N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
iwire said:
Now to me we are getting a bit carried away here

ULs position is that you cannot void or violate a listing and that it is up to the AHJ to determine if the modifications are enough to warrant a UL field evaluation. This info can be found in the white book.
Click to expand...

Right, so the Listed item in question is no longer listed when you alter it, as it was not installed per the instructions. The listed device is only listed when installed per the instructed The AHJ doesn't accept it that way, and most require FACP's to be listed. Just sayin, not my rules.

Edit-
I cannot find the exact section but, 864 does say somewhere-

"5. Conduit shall not enter the Fire Alarm Control Panel, or any other remotely mounted Control Panel equipment or backboxes, except where conduit entry is specified by the FACP manufacturer."
 
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N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
iwire said:
No, it is always listed regardless of how it is installed UL makes that clear.
Click to expand...

Actually UL makes it clear they dont know if it meets the listing once modified. So yes the AHJ gets to make the call, but until approved after modifying, its listing is uncertain- it's not always listed regardless.


http://ul.com/code-authorities/resources/faqs-for-code-authorities/

An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer?s declaration that the product was manufactured in accordance with all applicable requirements, and was in compliance with those requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When a UL Listed product is modified, retrofitted or altered in any way after it leaves the factory, it is not possible for UL to confirm that the product continues to meet the applicable certification safety requirements unless the field modifications are specifically investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction to assess the acceptability of the modifications or to determine if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field Engineering Services staff to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this determination. For information on UL field evaluations click here.
 
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