Where can you find/purchase a corner grounded delta (B phase) Din rail mounted 240V

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JNjie

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I am trying to find a circuit breaker for motor protection. The circuit breaker I am trying to find has the following specifications:

Must be Din rail mounted
-Provides Short Circuit Protection for a motor
-Doesn’t have to be Overload
-Has to be rated 240V,3 phase grounded, 20 hp
-Breaker has to be rated 1 phase- 3 phase suitability
-Must be corner- grounded delta (grounded B Phase).

I tried looking it up but it's hard to come across these breakers since they are rarely used anymore. Any suggestions on places to look ?
 
JNjie said:
I am trying to find a circuit breaker for motor protection. The circuit breaker I am trying to find has the following specifications:

Must be Din rail mounted
-Provides Short Circuit Protection for a motor
-Doesn’t have to be Overload
-Has to be rated 240V,3 phase grounded, 20 hp
-Breaker has to be rated 1 phase- 3 phase suitability
-Must be corner- grounded delta (grounded B Phase).

I tried looking it up but it's hard to come across these breakers since they are rarely used anymore. Any suggestions on places to look ?
Click to expand...

The problem is the 20HP rating. It seems that most vendors jump up to 3pole devices above 30A.
 
JNjie said:
Would the NEC allow to use a 3 Pole with the specifications given?
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I know the NEC permits three pole overcurrent devices as long as all poles are common trip. Never had reason to look at motor SC/GF as being any different.
 
JNjie said:
I am trying to find a circuit breaker for motor protection. The circuit breaker I am trying to find has the following specifications:

Must be Din rail mounted
-Provides Short Circuit Protection for a motor
-Doesn’t have to be Overload
-Has to be rated 240V,3 phase grounded, 20 hp
-Breaker has to be rated 1 phase- 3 phase suitability
-Must be corner- grounded delta (grounded B Phase).

I tried looking it up but it's hard to come across these breakers since they are rarely used anymore. Any suggestions on places to look ?
Click to expand...
The bolded lines seem confusing to me. Do you want a 2 pole breaker that goes on the B phase (+A or C), or do you want a 3 pole breaker?

You might be looking for something in the specs that you are not finding, because you are over thinking this. If you want a 2 pole breaker, it just needs to have a common trip, which would be as opposed to 2 single pole breakers. If you want a 3 pole breaker, there is nothing special about it. Just get a 3 pole 240V rated breaker that had a DIN rail clip on it. Pretty much everyone sells them, some you might have to use an adapter plate.

Either way, make sure you truly understand the available fault current in your system. Some of the extremely cheap little IEC style DIN rail breakers have very low ratings, as in 5kA if you are not careful. Also, make sure you understand the difference between UL1077 and UL489 listed breakers, that can get you in trouble too.
 
Jraef said:
The bolded lines seem confusing to me. Do you want a 2 pole breaker that goes on the B phase (+A or C), or do you want a 3 pole breaker?

You might be looking for something in the specs that you are not finding, because you are over thinking this. If you want a 2 pole breaker, it just needs to have a common trip, which would be as opposed to 2 single pole breakers. If you want a 3 pole breaker, there is nothing special about it. Just get a 3 pole 240V rated breaker that had a DIN rail clip on it. Pretty much everyone sells them, some you might have to use an adapter plate.

Either way, make sure you truly understand the available fault current in your system. Some of the extremely cheap little IEC style DIN rail breakers have very low ratings, as in 5kA if you are not careful. Also, make sure you understand the difference between UL1077 and UL489 listed breakers, that can get you in trouble too.
Click to expand...

A two pole or 3 pole , The breaker I want is for short circuit , the VFDs being used have a thermal lag already. I just need it to be din rail , 240VDC , 20hp , 100 A and can be corner grounded B-phase. A problem I have is getting to the UL 489 , does it state that a 3 pole or 2 pole can be used for B phase corner grounded?.
 
JNjie said:
A two pole or 3 pole , The breaker I want is for short circuit , the VFDs being used have a thermal lag already. I just need it to be din rail , 240VDC , 20hp , 100 A and can be corner grounded B-phase. A problem I have is getting to the UL 489 , does it state that a 3 pole or 2 pole can be used for B phase corner grounded?.
Click to expand...

Nothing says you have to use all three poles, although I probably would just get a 3 pole CB and be done with it.

UL489 only cares about the maximum voltage line to line or line to ground. If the CB is suitable for ungrounded 240V 3 phase delta, it is suitable for 3 phase delta corner grounded.
 
Your concern would be if you got a slash rated (i.e. 240/120V) DIN rail breaker.
In a four wire 208Y120 system you could use a breaker rated for 240V line to line but only a maximum of 120V line to ground.
But in a corner grounded 240 delta you would need a full rated breaker instead because you have 240V line to ground.
You just need to be concerned that breaker you get is fully rated for 240V.
 
Ok thank you. Is there anywhere that states the 240V 3 OR 2 pole will be suitable for corner grounding delta? I just need a back up in case I have to show it is.
 
JNjie said:
Ok thank you. Is there anywhere that states the 240V 3 OR 2 pole will be suitable for corner grounding delta? I just need a back up in case I have to show it is.
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Corner grounding is a special UL issue for 2-pole breakers.

Other than a Square D QOU3100, I am not aware of any other 100A DIN rail mounted breaker, although I am sure there most be one.

Why do you want DIN rail mounting? There are lots of breakers with line and load side lugs that mount to backpanels.
 
jim dungar said:
Corner grounding is a special UL issue for 2-pole breakers.

Other than a Square D QOU3100, I am not aware of any other 100A DIN rail mounted breaker, although I am sure there most be one.

Why do you want DIN rail mounting? There are lots of breakers with line and load side lugs that mount to backpanels.
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There are many other din rail mount type breakers out there outside of the big 4 panelboard maker's (Schnieder, Eaton, Siemens, GE) mainstream series - I think OP is looking into some of those for his application.
 
jim dungar said:
Corner grounding is a special UL issue for 2-pole breakers.

Other than a Square D QOU3100, I am not aware of any other 100A DIN rail mounted breaker, although I am sure there most be one.

Why do you want DIN rail mounting? There are lots of breakers with line and load side lugs that mount to backpanels.
Click to expand...

The application I am using it for requires din rail mounted plus its easier when it comes to installing the circuit breakers.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies. I found a Square D breaker (HDL36100) from Schneider electric that has been tested for use on corner grounded delta systems and is UL listed. It is panel mounted but they also have a din rail kit you can use for it.
 
JNjie said:
Thank you everyone for the replies. I found a Square D breaker (HDL36100) from Schneider electric that has been tested for use on corner grounded delta systems and is UL listed. It is panel mounted but they also have a din rail kit you can use for it.
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As should be the QOU3100 Don mentioned. The one you mentioned from what I know of their catalog numbers that is a 600 volt rated breaker - though one may need to consider other factors such as interrupt rating needed as well. The QO breaker is likely less cost if it will work - but that depends on your purchasing status with your supplier as well, depending on how sales accounts are set up seems to make a big difference on what you pay for Square D products, or which products you get a better price for.
 
kwired said:
As should be the QOU3100 Don mentioned. The one you mentioned from what I know of their catalog numbers that is a 600 volt rated breaker - though one may need to consider other factors such as interrupt rating needed as well. The QO breaker is likely less cost if it will work - but that depends on your purchasing status with your supplier as well, depending on how sales accounts are set up seems to make a big difference on what you pay for Square D products, or which products you get a better price for.
Click to expand...
You are right , I am currently talking to a Square D vendor to verify if the breaker QOU3100 can be used for the application I want .
 
kwired said:
As should be the QOU3100 Don mentioned. The one you mentioned from what I know of their catalog numbers that is a 600 volt rated breaker - though one may need to consider other factors such as interrupt rating needed as well. The QO breaker is likely less cost if it will work - but that depends on your purchasing status with your supplier as well, depending on how sales accounts are set up seems to make a big difference on what you pay for Square D products, or which products you get a better price for.
Click to expand...

The QOU3100 seems to be for regular panel-board. Also goes for the HDL26100 .I am actually looking for a 240 Vac breaker for an industrial control panel that can be din rail mounted and be corner ground. Its a custom design situation. These two square d breakers are for panel boards and wouldn't work for the application I would be using them for. NEC Article 409 is what i'm going by.
 
JNjie said:
The QOU3100 seems to be for regular panel-board. Also goes for the HDL26100 .I am actually looking for a 240 Vac breaker for an industrial control panel that can be din rail mounted and be corner ground. Its a custom design situation. These two square d breakers are for panel boards and wouldn't work for the application I would be using them for. NEC Article 409 is what i'm going by.
Click to expand...

The QOU breaker is designed with integral DIN mounting.
Neither of these breakers is designed for plugging onto panelboard bussing, both are built with line side and load side lugs and are intended to be mounted to something like the back panel in an equipment enclosure. They are both UL 489 listed and so cane be used to meet the requirements of Article 409.
 
JNjie said:
The QOU3100 seems to be for regular panel-board. Also goes for the HDL26100 .I am actually looking for a 240 Vac breaker for an industrial control panel that can be din rail mounted and be corner ground. Its a custom design situation. These two square d breakers are for panel boards and wouldn't work for the application I would be using them for. NEC Article 409 is what i'm going by.
Click to expand...

It is a QO frame, but the "U" in the catalog number denotes that it has lugs on both ends and doesn't plug/bolt onto a panelboard bus.
 
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