Troubleshooting Resi/Commercial Problems

[JFletcher]

Are there any good/standard guides/books to this? Approx. 15-20% of our calls are SDW ("something doesnt work). Normally I try to figure out the most likely failure point, then work from there. This is pretty decent, but doesnt always work well. To wit:

P(problem): Overhead crane not working
LP (likely problem): Busted weathertight fittings on controller; corrosion
PF (problem found): Crane cord had a short in it in two places.

P: String of receptacles not working
LP: Tripped breaker, tripped GFCI, backstab failure
PF: Tripped breaker in adjacent tenant's panel; breaker tripped in a way not immediately obvious it was tripped

P: Sign light (plug and cord) not working
LP: Bad sign (verified good by plugging into different receptacle), open neutral (via plug tester)
PF: Bad breaker (owner used it as a switch)

P: Newly installed AFCI tripping
LP: Shared neutrals w/another circuit
PF: Shared neutrals in 2 places (still took a while to find out where)

P: Hallway light wired to 3 ways stays on after several switch cycles
LP: ???
PF: Both 3 ways had failed

P: All lights in x room dont work
LP: Bad switch, tripped breaker
PF: All bulbs blown out

Is there any book that has this kind of stuff in it? I always try to get as much info as possible, like "when did it fail?", "have you done any electrical work recently?", "is the breaker tripped?", if so "will it reset?", etc as I can, tho many times the information given is not helpful, thus the SDW call. Or is this kind of learning the school of experience/hard knocks?

 

[Little Bill]

To write such a "standard" book, all problems would have to be "standard"

I find things sometimes from info/tips I've gleaned from others. I find problems sometimes using my experience from same type problems.

But there are (seems so) many problems that defy any of the methods used to find a problem quickly.
There are some books written by long time electricians of the things they have found in old wiring. Things like how they used to wire years ago but is not allowed now.

One such book is called:
"Old Electrical Wiring"
by: David E. Shapiro

But I don't think you will find any "one size fits all" troubleshooting book as there are way to many things that can happen that no one would imagine, IMO.

 

[J.P.]

I can't imagine there could be such a book. Each situation has the potential for any number of faults. That's if the problem is communicated correctly in the first place.

Experience and knowledge of how things work or can sort-of work when wired oddly.

Troubleshooting is something I do a lot of. If there were a book I think it would say check the simple stuff first and don't jump to conclusions or complicated solutions until you have eliminated the basic things by actually checking them. You have to understand what the person who wired it or added to it was trying to accomplish.

 

[templdl]

To write such a "standard" book, all problems would have to be "standard"

I find things sometimes from info/tips I've gleaned from others. I find problems sometimes using my experience from same type problems.

But there are (seems so) many problems that defy any of the methods used to find a problem quickly.
There are some books written by long time electricians of the things they have found in old wiring. Things like how they used to wire years ago but is not allowed now.

One such book is called:
"Old Electrical Wiring"
by: David E. Shapiro

But I don't think you will find any "one size fits all" troubleshooting book as there are way to many things that can happen that no one would imagine, IMO.

Right on!! I am not a believer in a knowledge bases at all as it turns an issue into being black or white. Find a question get an answer, a no brainer. An electrical distribution system is not blaçk and white. If it were that easy anybody would be doing it. You always have to consider the entire system and how thing interact an influence one another. It is imperative that you have extensive knowledge of distribution circuits and the associated components.
Knowing how devices function should be elementary. Things such as knowing what a thermal magnetic breaker does and what caused a trip and how to possibly determine the cause of trip should be basic knowledge and so much more.
There are so many devices that it is so important to understand what they actually do rather than installing devices because that is what is as opposed to be installed while not having a clue what there are supposed to do and how they work.

 

[ATSman]

Is there any book that has this kind of stuff in it? I always try to get as much info as possible, like "when did it fail?", "have you done any electrical work recently?", "is the breaker tripped?", if so "will it reset?", etc as I can, tho many times the information given is not helpful, thus the SDW call. Or is this kind of learning the school of experience/hard knocks?[/QUOTE]

No book I know of since the field is so vast. But your last sentence seems to sums it up based on my 45 yrs of field work.
You can solve the problem much faster if you have "seen it before" (familiar with the system) but if it is new territory (never worked on the system; UPS, VFD, UPS, Fire Alarm, HVAC, etc) and you follow the basic rules of T-shooting then it will take longer. Is it power quality related? If so, does it originate from inside the plant or from the utility? I have worked around(and designed) switchgear controls (main double-ended switchboards,auto transfer schemes, breaker controls, SCADA, MCC's, ATS transfer schemes and aux control systems, emergency generators, battery charges, battery plants, LV & MV, all manufacturer's and pretty much they all follow a pattern. The schematic of the control system is the road map to finding where the sequence of operation fails and where the problem is whether it is a component, loose terminal connection, bad component (timer, relay, ind. light, controller, circuit board, selector switch contact, burnt solenoid, blown fuse, etc, etc.)
Just look for the guy with the grey hair and he most likely will show you where the problem is because he has seen (not all!) but most of it.
Good luck!!

 

[just the cowboy]

Don't think it would work.

Don't think it would work.

I work in industrial electric and even when you get a newmachine in the troubleshooting section does not help much with their own machine.They tell you the basics like is switch A on and switch B off or is a fuseblown.
Troubleshooting takes time and effort and a systematic approach,not shot in dark style.

 

[growler]

I can't imagine there could be such a book. Each situation has the potential for any number of faults. That's if the problem is communicated correctly in the first place.

Most often you need to define the problem rather than just go by symptoms given by the customer.

Other night I get a call that half the lights in the house or out.

I'm thinking that it either a circuit or half the power (one leg is missing). Check and it's a bad breaker. That's not really the problem but it had to be replaced before I can start looking for why the breaker went bad. Circuit to an old ceiling fan was shorted and every time they turn the switch on the breaker would trip ( they didn't mention that ).

 

[kwired]

You need to understand what it is you are working on. This takes time and experience to find all those common glitches that happen for each particular component of the system.

This goes beyond just electrical things. I once had blown a injector line in my diesel truck, when I went to dealer parts counter to get parts - they didn't even look up the part, he asked me if it was on cylinder #2 (or whichever it was) I said yes and he walks to the shelf and grabs the right part. The line to that particular cylinder is about the only one they ever sell for whatever reason - experience told them that. The new one was designed slightly differently maybe they corrected a known problem.

 

[keith gigabyte]

I agree no problem is "standard", but my question. Is how do you bill for searching time. Example: small commercial building several tenants, several load centers and a couple of hidden panels. Problem...lights on outside of building not working. No house panel. Searched 2 hours for feed. Convinced there is a panel somewhere I'm not finding. Owner has no idea where it may be..newly purchased building. Not asking for help to find panel..asking how do u all bill for searching time

 

[K8MHZ]

I agree no problem is "standard", but my question. Is how do you bill for searching time. Example: small commercial building several tenants, several load centers and a couple of hidden panels. Problem...lights on outside of building not working. No house panel. Searched 2 hours for feed. Convinced there is a panel somewhere I'm not finding. Owner has no idea where it may be..newly purchased building. Not asking for help to find panel..asking how do u all bill for searching time

I charge by the hour.

I remember one job I did tracing out dead a circuit and tearing my hair out trying to find the source. A couple hours later I discovered that the customer had put a full sized refrigerator in front of a sub panel in a finished basement. Inside the panel was a tripped breaker. I couldn't find anything else wrong. Re-set the breaker and all was well. I recommended not putting the refrigerator back where it was.

One job I spent hours tracing out a dead circuit to find a tripped GFCI receptacle on a short pole outside, in the garden, overgrown with vegetation.

One job I did had a foyer light that would stay on when the switch was turned off. I walked away to look for an improperly wired 3 way and the light went off. Hmm.... I turned the switch on, the light comes one. I turn the switch off, the light stays on. I go look for another switch and as I get a few feet away, the light goes off.

It was the switch. I replaced it and could put it on the bench with a meter and watch the 'delay' happen. I kept the switch, but don't know what I did with it.

So, have fun. Troubleshooting is something you have to love in order to think you are charging enough money to do it, no matter how you do it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

P: Three receptacles out in bedroom
LP: Tripped breaker, back stab failure, wire failure
PF: Receptacles fed from load side of exterior GFCI

That one took a couple of hours to find

 

[K8MHZ]

This goes beyond just electrical things. I once had blown a injector line in my diesel truck, when I went to dealer parts counter to get parts - they didn't even look up the part, he asked me if it was on cylinder #2 (or whichever it was) I said yes and he walks to the shelf and grabs the right part. The line to that particular cylinder is about the only one they ever sell for whatever reason - experience told them that. The new one was designed slightly differently maybe they corrected a known problem.

In a previous life I worked on vehicles for a living. One of my favorite things to tell customers was that they had so many problems with the particular year of the vehicle they owned that the company only made them for 12 months.

I can tell if a vehicle is charging the battery or not by the way it sounds. When the alternator is working and loaded, it makes a particular sound which I refer to as the 'dynamo hum'. It's more of a whistle, really, but I can hear it very easily.

I have made many a diagnosis on vehicles by smell. Nothing smells quite like burnt circuit boards in the morning.

 

[JFletcher]

ty all for the replies so far; they've been very helpful!

Back when I ran incinerators, I could tell you everything from the color of the stack plume and the pitch of the ID fan, didnt even have to be in the building to know where the burn zone was, and its temperature(s). That took a few years to do.

This (electrical) is similar, just trying to apply analysis to common problems; start with the easiest to diagnose/most likely problem, then work from there. Most of it (in residential) I have a pretty good grasp on how it works; how it can fail is another matter.. e.g., three way switch (working normally) in one position connects common with traveler A, in the other, common to B. Didnt realize upon failing they can not work at all, or connect to one traveler (but not the other), or both at the same time (or possibly traveler/traveler but not common). Now I have that information/experience and the next time, I will be more proficient at that particular problem.

K8MHZ, about two years ago my car died at an intersection. Bad luck. Good luck was the truck behind me was an older mechanic who owned a nearby shop; took him less than a minute to figure out my timing belt broke. I would have found that... 2 hours later lol.

eta: I remember my mother telling me a story of an old time furnace guy coming by on emergency on a holiday weekend; my grandmother had no heat. He went and reset the furnace reset and it came on. Two minutes. Handed her a full repair bill (which was like $35 at the time). She asked "why so much? you just reset a breaker?"

His reply: "You didnt know where it was. and I get paid for what I know, not what I do".

 

[templdl]

ty all for the replies so far; they've been very helpful!

His reply: "You didnt know where it was. and I get paid for what I know, not what I do".

Some people are terminally stupid when it comes to understanding what it takes to gain the knowledge asnd expertise to address their problems. I have often replied that if it was that simple it is a DIY project and they don't need your knowledge and experience.

 

[kwired]

Had a guy call me last weekend his gas furnace not working. He was smart enough to have seen/decipher diagnostic code on the main board that indicated pressure switch open, was asking me on phone about the switch, I told him that just means it is not seeing a closed switch when it is expecting to see it, not necessarily that the switch is bad and he very likely has other problems - which I talked him through a few potential problems - but he was looking at the wrong blower the entire time even though I tried to explain which one to be looking at.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Yes, same goes for HVAC and plumbing problems. Mystery leak coming out of the wall on to the carpet in front of the wall/chase separating men's/women's bathrooms, turned out one urinal drain seal bad, urinal caulked all the way around, water filled up to opening in the wall then ran down the back, along the bottom track, to the wall, carpet soaked it up. Had to get a contractor in with a sewer camera and fish it about 15' inside of the wall to find the leak..

But, other times my tenants think I'm a magician, but I've spent almost 10 yrs. running these two buildings I have, know them inside and out... when in doubt, look for the old crusty building engineer.

 

[Strathead]

I agree no problem is "standard", but my question. Is how do you bill for searching time. Example: small commercial building several tenants, several load centers and a couple of hidden panels. Problem...lights on outside of building not working. No house panel. Searched 2 hours for feed. Convinced there is a panel somewhere I'm not finding. Owner has no idea where it may be..newly purchased building. Not asking for help to find panel..asking how do u all bill for searching time

By the hour, but if you are having your described problem, I would make sure the owner knows what the confusion is costing him very politely. He may solve it much more quickly.

 

[K8MHZ]

One thing to remember is that a good many customers can't accurately give you directions to their own home let alone accurately describe any sort of electrical problem. So pretty much count on any time spent on the phone listening to details being not only wasted, but often confusing and distracting.

 

[kwired]

Having the right tools may help find what you are looking for faster - but they cost money as well.


Had a directional boring contractor tell me about how he had a customer complain about how high his cost was one time for no longer then they were on site.

He had to explain how the trailer he pulled up with had at least a million dollars of equipment on it, how it was pretty non invasive on his yard compared to backhoeing across the entire yard yet same work was accomplised ....customer still didn't get it.

 

[Strathead]

One of my favorite things to lecture on is troubleshooting. I begin with my conviction that troubleshooting is an innate ability that can only be taught up to a point, much like being good at sports or being good at music, etc. You may be able to be taught all of the tools and skills, but your brain has to fire the right way to truly be a good troubleshooter. You can teach how to get by. I always say that if I can figure out how something is supposed to work, then I can figure out how to fix it. So, it isn't about electrical troubleshooting, or automotive troubleshooting etc., it is about how does it work? how do I fix it?

That said, the guides to electrical troubleshooting are every piece of information you can learn about electrical theory.