Please discuss using a transformer above its kva rating

Status
Not open for further replies.
What are the implications to using a transformer above its KVA rating? When does core saturation happen, does efficiency tank and voltage drop rise dramatically when the kva is exceeded, or does it just really come down to heat and how long the load is above the rating? Clearly this is common utility practice and utility engineers have told me they actually go by heat calculation not kva when sizing transformers. Thanks
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
151204-2114 EST

Saturation problems relate to voltage and frequency.

kVA rating is based on ambient temperature, temperature rise, heat transfer, thermal mass, thermal time constant, materials used, and expected transformer life.

.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
What are the implications to using a transformer above its KVA rating? When does core saturation happen, does efficiency tank and voltage drop rise dramatically when the kva is exceeded, or does it just really come down to heat and how long the load is above the rating? Clearly this is common utility practice and utility engineers have told me they actually go by heat calculation not kva when sizing transformers. Thanks

What is the bases for your question, a real life application, a what if question, a test question from a test, etc. Is it liquid cooled or ventilated dry type? What is the temperature rise? What is its insulation class? What is the ambient temperature? Does it have forced air cooling?
Please start with an example of a nameplate from aa given transformer as an example. With this I could address the variables that would influence your ability to apply the transformer above its nameplate rating. Basically it is trying to preserve insulation life of the windings. It is all about temperature and how the transformer was designed.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
ElectroFelon...

I suggest you search web for a 2011 paper titled, "SHORT-TIME OVERLOADING OF POWER TRANSFORMERS!" It was presented by ABB Corporate Research in Västerås, Sweden!

If you are unable to locate it, contact me!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
The really simple answer is if you can keep it cool enough you can run a transformer substantially above the air-over kVA rating.

Power transformers are manufactured according to damage curves like Phil mentioned, which will describe the duty-cycle they can tolerate for a given overload.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
GoldDigger...

Ever been there? I once visited the facility when they were called ASEA, before merging with Brown-Boveri of Switzerland! At the time they were producing transformers for TVA, on an assembly line basis, in a 1/2 a mile long building!

Phil
 

Iron_Ben

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
What are the implications to using a transformer above its KVA rating? When does core saturation happen, does efficiency tank and voltage drop rise dramatically when the kva is exceeded, or does it just really come down to heat and how long the load is above the rating? Clearly this is common utility practice and utility engineers have told me they actually go by heat calculation not kva when sizing transformers. Thanks

Well I'm a (retired) utility engineer. You're right that overloading transformers (with the exception of million dollar substation type) is routine. And as previous posts have noted, there are a lot of variables to consider. Our guideline for single phase transformer peak loading was as follows: pole tops to 150% and padmounts to 120%, assuming roughly normal load curves. I found these limits to be a bit conservative.
 
Thank you all for the replies. Phil I will definitely look for that article. It has always been my understanding that it pretty much just comes to heat, and that is what everyone seems to be confirming. I wasnt sure if there were other factors, like I questioned in the OP such as efficiency, that came into play. So I could push say 5, 10, 15 times the nameplate KVA through a transformer for a minute or two or whatever until the temp rose to the design temp (and of course it wont fail just past the design temp, there is certainly a statistical shortening of life)? I am not clear on why the core saturation issues can easily manifest with frequency and/or voltage variations, yet there doesnt seem to to be a limit to the magnetic flux from over KVA. Surly there must be a point where the magnetic flux cannot rise from further magnetic field force, or is the point so far beyond the KVA rating that it only shows up during severe overloading or faults?

Ok Ill un-secret what I am getting at. Part of it is just academic curiosity and furthering my knowledge, but this was initiated by another one of these fun long wire run step up step down scenarios ;) I am considering bringing in the evil high wire to my off-grid house. There are two potential routes: one is 1000 feet and the other is 2200 feet. The shorted route may incur highest utility connection charges as the end point of my line would still be a few poles away. The shorter route is short enough that it could be done with 4/0 or maybe 250 AL for about 3K. For long route, I have a real hairbrained plan :angel: I am considering stepping up to 2400 and sending over on 2KV #12 PV wire sleeved in 1/2 PVC. I found two of these transformers for pretty cheap. The advantage of this is it is about half the cost for materials (potential a lot less overall If utility charges more for the shorter route) and trenching is much easier as I can use my mini edger which makes a 1 inch wide trench. Codes are not an issue here, but I do want something reliable and functional.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENERAL-ELE...248042?hash=item4883584f2a:g:RzIAAOSw4SlV7y9y

I am thinking 10KVA is adequate. The place is small - more of a cabin. The only significant loads would be an electric dryer, a smaller well pump, and a 3HP motor, maybe a 5 HP, on a table saw but it would be used for very intermittent hobby/homeowner type stuff. Oh a welder too, probably 30 amp max at 240. So to make a long story short, I consider 10KVA to be a perfectly reasonable size, just wonder what others think. I am a little concerned about starting the motor, any thoughts on that? Should I calculate the VD at 6 times the FLA and try to keep that below a certain value and if so what should I use for the acceptable VD for the motor inrush? So that is my wild idea.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
151205-2344 EST

electrofelon:

The secondary load current flux is equal and opposite that of the primary load current flux. Thus, they cancel.

Put a short circuit across the secondary of a transformer. Ideally the load current would approach infinity. But there is an internal series impedance in the transformer that limits the short circuit current. This impedance is from series winding resistance and leakage flux inductance. Not all flux from the primary is coupled to the secondary.

Your two equivalent internal series impedances from the two transformer plus line impedance will determine your impedance for voltage drop.

.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
There has been sent me very interesting posts.
It all goes back to insulation being based upon maximum maximum permissible temperasturethat will
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
In click send by accident. This is the rest of my post.

In click send by accident. This is the rest of my post.

There has been sent me very interesting posts.
It all goes back to insulation being based upon maximum maximum permissible temperasturethat will
There has been sent me very interesting posts.
It all goes back to insulation being based upon maximum maximum permissible temperature that will cause degadation of the insulation to half its original value in an estimated 20,000 hours. The insulation half-life is based upon the fact that insulation life is reduced by half for each 8-10degc increase in insulation temperature.
Starting at this point then assuming that the OP is referring to a ventilated dry type distribution transformer the insulation temperature is normally today 220degC. The transformers's KVA rating is then based upon a 40degC ambient plus 150degC rise plus a necessary winding hot spot of 30deg which adds up to 220degC. Thus, consider the ambient temperature to be less than 40deg C which will increase the transformer life.
But, industry std for the rated kva is based upon 30degC. Thus, the load must be decreased by 1% or every degree above and can be increased 0.67% for every degC below. This is based upon the transformer rating. Of course the common transformer is very seldom loaded to its rating.
The average temperature should be for a 24hr period with a max temp not more than 10degC greater than the average temp.
But puting all that stuff asside it is expected that a dtdt's life expectancy should be about 35 years based upon an avg 35% loading. When loaded at 100% expect 3-5 years based upon a 30degC amb a degC max. The +10degC over 30degC should be balanced with the same time at 10degC below.
Please note that for every continuous 10degC above 30degC reduces the life by 50%.
Then, there is also the 115 and 80degC rise transformers. Note that both still have 220deg insulation class so when operated at 30degC ambient there transformers will have a longer life.
And now the good part of the 115 and 80degC rise transformers is that the 115degC can carry an additional 15% overload and the 80degC rise can carry an additional 30% overload without exceeding its insulation class.
So, transformer life? There are many thing that can be considered the revolve around ambient temperature and the loading.
 
There has been sent me very interesting posts.
It all goes back to insulation being based upon maximum maximum permissible temperature that will cause degadation of the insulation to half its original value in an estimated 20,000 hours. The insulation half-life is based upon the fact that insulation life is reduced by half for each 8-10degc increase in insulation temperature.
Starting at this point then assuming that the OP is referring to a ventilated dry type distribution transformer the insulation temperature is normally today 220degC. The transformers's KVA rating is then based upon a 40degC ambient plus 150degC rise plus a necessary winding hot spot of 30deg which adds up to 220degC. Thus, consider the ambient temperature to be less than 40deg C which will increase the transformer life.
But, industry std for the rated kva is based upon 30degC. Thus, the load must be decreased by 1% or every degree above and can be increased 0.67% for every degC below. This is based upon the transformer rating. Of course the common transformer is very seldom loaded to its rating.
The average temperature should be for a 24hr period with a max temp not more than 10degC greater than the average temp.
But puting all that stuff asside it is expected that a dtdt's life expectancy should be about 35 years based upon an avg 35% loading. When loaded at 100% expect 3-5 years based upon a 30degC amb a degC max. The +10degC over 30degC should be balanced with the same time at 10degC below.
Please note that for every continuous 10degC above 30degC reduces the life by 50%.
Then, there is also the 115 and 80degC rise transformers. Note that both still have 220deg insulation class so when operated at 30degC ambient there transformers will have a longer life.
And now the good part of the 115 and 80degC rise transformers is that the 115degC can carry an additional 15% overload and the 80degC rise can carry an additional 30% overload without exceeding its insulation class.
So, transformer life? There are many thing that can be considered the revolve around ambient temperature and the loading.

very good information. thank you.

Another question. In terms of NEC compliance, can I overload a transformer? About all we have to go off of is ye old 110.3(B). Say I had a situation with brief periods where the load was above the KVA rating of the transformer, yet the load pattern was such that it never overheated.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
very good information. thank you.

Another question. In terms of NEC compliance, can I overload a transformer? About all we have to go off of is ye old 110.3(B). Say I had a situati. on with brief periods where the load was above the KVA rating of the transformer, yet the load pattern was such that it never overheated.
.

Thank you. As most probably are aware of typing is not my best skill.
Define what you would determine as over heating. You must have a bench mark to do so as the definition of overheating is relative or ambiguos. I believe that I may have addressed this that the time spent is an overload condition must be balanced with at least an. equal length of time underloaded.
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
Infinite Amount of Power

Infinite Amount of Power

In light of this discussion, I was told that in theory, if one could continue to remove the heat proportional to the increasing load, one could get an infinite amount of power out of a transformer.
Comments? :angel:
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
In light of this discussion, I was told that in theory, if one could continue to remove the heat proportional to the increasing load, one could get an infinite amount of power out of a transformer.
Comments? :angel:
Absolutely, as long as you did not care about voltage drop!
No amount of cooling short of superconductivity will limit the voltage drop to an acceptable figure as you increase the load :)
You also have to put a larger infinite amount of power in somehow. :angel:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top