How do you deal with shuttling?

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cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I've just never understood the whole "time" thing. The idea is to get the job done, not split hairs over 15 minutes.

I've told this story before. I got back to the shop one day at 3:30 and the boss asked me what I was doing. I told him that we had gotten to a good stopping point and called it a day, I asked what the problem was since it was just now 3:30. He flatly told me "I pay you from 7:00 to 3:30 and I expect you to be on the job site until then. Do you understand." "Yes sir, perfectly." The next morning I got to the shop at 6:30 like I always did and he was loading the truck and I was just sitting there drinking my coffee, when he asked if I was going to help or not. "well sir, you pay me from 7:00 to 3:30 and when it get's to be 7:00 I will gladly help you load the truck."

We never had that conversation again.

I give, you give, it all comes out in the wash.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
IMO providing a shuttle service is a perk that the employer is providing as a bonus. It is up to the employee to get his self to the job site on time and ready to work.

I can see though, that sometimes this would be painful enough to the employee that he might not want to work a particular project so an employer might make it a little easier on him by providing some relief. Having said that, there are a bunch of people driving multiple hours to work, or worse, taking public transportation with no employer sponsored transportation.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
I've just never understood the whole "time" thing. The idea is to get the job done, not split hairs over 15 minutes.

I've told this story before. I got back to the shop one day at 3:30 and the boss asked me what I was doing. I told him that we had gotten to a good stopping point and called it a day, I asked what the problem was since it was just now 3:30. He flatly told me "I pay you from 7:00 to 3:30 and I expect you to be on the job site until then. Do you understand." "Yes sir, perfectly." The next morning I got to the shop at 6:30 like I always did and he was loading the truck and I was just sitting there drinking my coffee, when he asked if I was going to help or not. "well sir, you pay me from 7:00 to 3:30 and when it get's to be 7:00 I will gladly help you load the truck."

We never had that conversation again.

I give, you give, it all comes out in the wash.

I completely understand your point of view, as it's the one that I used to have. But workers today aren't what they used to be. The sad majority are eight and skate guys. And you're right about 15 minutes not being a ton of time, but I have to consider the multiplier effect on this one. 15 min x 40 guys x 8 months = 1700+ man hours. Due to the size of these jobs, I have to be a lot more diligent about making sure breaks are 15, and lunch is 30, etc. With smaller crews, you can cut the guys a little slack and you get the increased production as a way of them saying thank you. It just doesn't translate to the big ones, in my experience...
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I completely understand your point of view, as it's the one that I used to have. But workers today aren't what they used to be. The sad majority are eight and skate guys. And you're right about 15 minutes not being a ton of time, but I have to consider the multiplier effect on this one. 15 min x 40 guys x 8 months = 1700+ man hours. Due to the size of these jobs, I have to be a lot more diligent about making sure breaks are 15, and lunch is 30, etc. With smaller crews, you can cut the guys a little slack and you get the increased production as a way of them saying thank you. It just doesn't translate to the big ones, in my experience...
And I completely understand your point of view. My take is that the guys don't get to pick which jobs are taken on by the company and it's not their fault that there is no job site access. As the employer if you want them there at a certain time then you should either help them out as you suggested or figure out another alternative. Most construction bosses have never taken management 101 and have no idea how to deal with employees, many have just worked their way up the ladder and are the old drill Sargent type, yell, bellow, and threaten. It's been proven that most employees will be happier with some respect and perks than with money thrown at them.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
And I completely understand your point of view. My take is that the guys don't get to pick which jobs are taken on by the company and it's not their fault that there is no job site access. As the employer if you want them there at a certain time then you should either help them out as you suggested or figure out another alternative. Most construction bosses have never taken management 101 and have no idea how to deal with employees, many have just worked their way up the ladder and are the old drill Sargent type, yell, bellow, and threaten. It's been proven that most employees will be happier with some respect and perks than with money thrown at them.

And what you describe is the exact opposite of what I try to do as a foreman. I always do my best to see as many sides of an issue as I can, which is why I'm having difficulty with this situation. The job location is within 20 minutes of 75% of the employees at the company, so I do the math in my head and think "well they could be sent to a site an hour and half away and not get paid for the drive there or back," so it doesn't seem like much to ask. Then there's the purely technical side which says "it's not their problem that they can't park on site."

I think that's why I'm leaning towards the compromise route. To shuttle everyone to the site by 7am, we'd have to start at 6:30. I think that I can reasonably present both arguments to the guys, and ask them to meet me in the middle. At least that's what I hope. If not, I do have the inner drill sergeant who has to be brought out every now and again.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
And what you describe is the exact opposite of what I try to do as a foreman. I always do my best to see as many sides of an issue as I can, which is why I'm having difficulty with this situation. The job location is within 20 minutes of 75% of the employees at the company, so I do the math in my head and think "well they could be sent to a site an hour and half away and not get paid for the drive there or back," so it doesn't seem like much to ask. Then there's the purely technical side which says "it's not their problem that they can't park on site."

I think that's why I'm leaning towards the compromise route. To shuttle everyone to the site by 7am, we'd have to start at 6:30. I think that I can reasonably present both arguments to the guys, and ask them to meet me in the middle. At least that's what I hope. If not, I do have the inner drill sergeant who has to be brought out every now and again.
And that's fair enough. How about a promise of a company/foreman bought lunch one day as a thanks for working with us on this.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
....Due to the size of these jobs, I have to be a lot more diligent about making sure breaks are 15, and lunch is 30, etc. With smaller crews, you can cut the guys a little slack and you get the increased production as a way of them saying thank you. It just doesn't translate to the big ones, in my experience...
What does translate is making sure that you have all the materials needed, plans are set, other trades are done in the area where you are going to work. Nothing pissed me off more than having someone watching breaks with a stop watch but when you jump up to get back to work you can't because there are not the right tools on the job or stuff was missing or the room you were sent to work in didn't have the walls framed, etc.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
What does translate is making sure that you have all the materials needed, plans are set, other trades are done in the area where you are going to work. Nothing pissed me off more than having someone watching breaks with a stop watch but when you jump up to get back to work you can't because there are not the right tools on the job or stuff was missing or the room you were sent to work in didn't have the walls framed, etc.

Couldnt agree more. That's never really an issue with my jobs, but on this one it might actually be. The other complication of the tight job site is that I'm only allowed one connex on site for materials. A job this size, at the pace it's being done, I would normally have seven minimum. I always like to order materials based upon where the job will be in two to three weeks. I'm not going to have the space to store any of the valuables due to the limitation mentioned above. It adds layers of difficulty that I'm not used to dealing with, primary example being the lighting package. Normally, the whole thing would be released, I could organize it by fixture type in my connexes, an pull as needed. For this one we've had to work out an agreement with one of our larger vendors to store the package in their warehouse space and make weekly deliveries to the site of the fixtures I think will be hung five days at a time. It's all just an extra layer of the giant onion that this job is turning out to be...
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I normally won't tolerate not having access to a job site. If the customer can't make arrangements for workers to park their vehicles within a reasonable distance then the cost of transporting them to the job site is figured into the contract. Hire a bus or two. Pick them up at 7AM sharp. If you require them to report earlier then you must pay them for the time.

-Hal

I was looking for this perspective. I disagree. It totally depends on what you are requiring from you employees, what they will tolerate and what the situation demands. In my opinion if you require them to be on the job site at 7:00 AM period, but you offer a shuttle service from a remote location at their choice for their convenience, then the only person you have to pay per the federal labor board is the shuttle driver. They don't have to be at the shuttle location early, they have to be on the job site on time.

Anything beyond that is choice. My company chooses to treat its employees fairly decent. Each situation is different, but we will often pay one way, and select a driver who is reliable dependable and valuable to be paid overtime for the remainder.

For the OP, I suggest a staggered start and finish, expecting to pay the Foreman and responsible lead men to stay overtime for supervision. The Foremen generally like it because they often end up arriving early and staying late anyway.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I was looking for this perspective. I disagree. It totally depends on what you are requiring from you employees, what they will tolerate and what the situation demands. In my opinion if you require them to be on the job site at 7:00 AM period, but you offer a shuttle service from a remote location at their choice for their convenience, then the only person you have to pay per the federal labor board is the shuttle driver. They don't have to be at the shuttle location early, they have to be on the job site on time.

Anything beyond that is choice. My company chooses to treat its employees fairly decent. Each situation is different, but we will often pay one way, and select a driver who is reliable dependable and valuable to be paid overtime for the remainder.

For the OP, I suggest a staggered start and finish, expecting to pay the Foreman and responsible lead men to stay overtime for supervision. The Foremen generally like it because they often end up arriving early and staying late anyway.

I agree. If I set up the project that start time is at a gang box at 7:00AM that is where and when the day starts, how the employees get there at that time is their responsibility. We will provide as a convenience shuttles from parking areas to help the employees but they are more than welcome to walk, parachute, or have their wife, husband, mother, father, son, daughter, dog, cat, drop them off at the front of the project if they don't want to be at the pick up when the shuttle leaves.


At the end of the day the shuttles are waiting at 3:30PM to take them to the parking areas, or they can be picked up by one of the aforementioned, this usually takes longer since the ride is going to be stuck in traffic. IMO, this is being considerate of the employees and if they think this is unfair, so be it.


Roger
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
This is what we did when I worked on a bridge. The company bought 4 old Ford 15 passenger vans. You had to be there when the vans left or it was up to you to get to the job site. It was a great investment as the cost of the vans was a fraction of what the loss of productivity and man power would have been.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Just curious, what bridge. I moved from Fairfield to Florida 10 years ago, but I still miss it a little.
 
Don't "ASK" - Inform what time employee expected in work area

Don't "ASK" - Inform what time employee expected in work area

We used small buses for downtown college campus jobs where their is NOT enough parking for students in a 12 block area, much less "construction workers" and old school bus for ferrying from parking area to working area on industrial projects.

Reference time to be on job, union or non-union - you can dictate employee's to be in work area and working at 7AM, how they do it is up to them...IF you make the mistake of "asking" they show up at 6.40AM to insure they are in work area, be prepared for labor board (federal) inquiry and someone spending months or longer researching payroll (depending on how long you have been "asking" employee's to show up without pay early) and after the research, pay each and every employee for every minute and then "prove" you have done so to labor board with copies of time sheets and paychecks. ABSOLUTELY NO FUN WHAT SO EVER.

Steve

"Never confuse motion with activity."
- Ben Franklin, statesmen, founding father
 
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