How to find Horse Power?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If you had a 11kw motor rated 460 volts 60 Hz and supplied it with a VFD and assume you have V/F settings set for constant ratio - if you change the output frequency to 50 Hz it will put out 380 volts when running at 50 Hz. Your output horsepower (or kW) will decrease at the lower speed. Power is work/time. More RPM's does more work in less time, assuming there is enough torque to maintain RPM's.
 

Pizza

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Pizza,

Presuming you get the chance to inspect the other running pump, it would be a good idea to check the impeller for size differences, or if a throttling or restricting valve was installed. The motor originally ran on 50 Hz and running it at 60 Hz will be a nominal 17% speed increase. On centrifugal pumps or fans under certain conditions this will mean an approximate 40% more torque to keep the impeller above the new full load speed. One way to solve this problem is to "trim" the impeller, another way is to restrict the output flow (sounds counter intuitive I know). Trimming the impeller is a permanent solution. The restricting or throttling valve can be mis-adjusted by uninformed personnel.

How do you know that motor was designed for 50 HZ?
Because of the voltage rating?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
160101-2357 EST

FionaZuppa:

What does your statement
it seems that all AC motors are designed to work with 7.6 V/Hz.
mean?

What is your proof?

I really don't understand the statement.

Basically a motor voltage rating will depend upon frequency, the number of winding turns, voltage, magnetic core material, and how far the core is driven into saturation. For a given motor and frequency the voltage rating will be proportional to the number of turns.

.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
230/60=3.8, 575/60= 9.5, 4160/60 = 69.3

perhaps i should have left "all" out of my statement.
VFD's seem to be the place where 7.6 and 3.8 was dominant (perhaps common supplies and common freq). this is an area i not so familiar with.

from what i see online changing the ratio up can damage the motor. to what extent or at what diff in ratio i do not know. if anyone can explain it i am all ears.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
perhaps i should have left "all" out of my statement.
VFD's seem to be the place where 7.6 and 3.8 was dominant (perhaps common supplies and common freq). this is an area i not so familiar with.

from what i see online changing the ratio up can damage the motor. to what extent or at what diff in ratio i do not know. if anyone can explain it i am all ears.
In general you need to keep the ratio the motor was designed for. A 460 volt 60 hz motor running at 30 hz needs to have voltage reduced to 230 to maintain same ratio.

I think there are times when the drive can be set to temporarily vary the ratio to some extent, but as a way of assisting with torque boost during acceleration or deceleration, but not as a constant running condition.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
In general you need to keep the ratio the motor was designed for. A 460 volt 60 hz motor running at 30 hz needs to have voltage reduced to 230 to maintain same ratio.

I think there are times when the drive can be set to temporarily vary the ratio to some extent, but as a way of assisting with torque boost during acceleration or deceleration, but not as a constant running condition.
Some variable frequency drives have the facility to run at reduced V/f ratio on light loads. This to improve efficiency for such load conditions.
 
perhaps i should have left "all" out of my statement.
VFD's seem to be the place where 7.6 and 3.8 was dominant (perhaps common supplies and common freq). this is an area i not so familiar with.

from what i see online changing the ratio up can damage the motor. to what extent or at what diff in ratio i do not know. if anyone can explain it i am all ears.

Jraef or Besoeker are probably the experts needed to explain this, but I'll give it a shot.

Yes, the volts to Hz ratio needs to be maintained when using a VFD to change frequency. If you had a 460V / 60hz motor, and you wanted to run the motor at 20 Hz then the voltage the motor "wants to see" at 20 Hz is 152V.

Now if you want to run the motor at 90 hz the motor "wants to see" 684V, The problem now is the the VFD cannot produce "what the motor interprets" as 684V. More about this later.

This next part is where my description needs some work. You may have noticed the bold text in quotation marks above. When we refer to AC voltage we are often leaving out RMS (root mean squared). This is a mathematical average voltage of the AC sine wave. the peak to peak voltage of what we refer as 460V is actually close to 644V.

The VFD actually sends to the motor peak to peak voltages around 640V with very sharp corners on the pulses, not a nice rounded sine wave. The VFD changes the width of the pulses much like a FM radio station does. When the motor's coils "see" these pulses it tends to make them "look" more like the sine wave from an AC generator than the choppy signal the VFD is sending. If you could do a RMS of the output voltage from the VFD, it would conform to the 7.6 volts to hz ratio until 60 hz. At this point the VFD "runs out of voltage" to synthesize RMS voltage.

Most of know that we can change the operating voltage of many AC motors by changing the terminations in the peckerhead. In a typical 230/460V motor The motor wants to "see" 3.8V /Hz when it is configured for 230V and 7.6V /Hz when configured for 460V.

Sometimes we can take advantage of the 230V to 460V configuration by connecting the motor for 230V and powering it with a 460V supplied VFD. The insulation in the motor is capable of withstanding the 460V RMS, and the VFD can now be configured to supply the motor with a 3.8V /Hz ratio. At this point the VFD can supply 120Hz without any loss of motor torque above 60 Hz.

I see Besoeker has replied before I posted.
 
Last edited:

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The VFD actually sends to the motor peak to peak voltages around 640V with very sharp corners on the pulses, not a nice rounded sine wave. The VFD changes the width of the pulses much like a FM radio station does. When the motor's coils "see" these pulses it tends to make them "look" more like the sine wave from an AC generator than the choppy signal the VFD is sending. If you could do a RMS of the output voltage from the VFD, it would conform to the 7.6 volts to hz ratio until 60 hz. At this point the VFD "runs out of voltage" to synthesize RMS voltage.

The variable frequency inverter rectifies the 460Vac and that rectified voltage is about 640Vdc, not Vpk-Vpk. It is typically between 1.35 and 1.414 time the value of the applied three phase AC.

The resulting DC is switched with alternate polarities to the motor windings - in a so-called PWM pattern. The mark space ratio is varied to result in different RMS outputs. The motor inductance makes the current quite sinusoidal but the pulses have a very fast rise time and can result in motor winding insulation damage and special precautions may be required to mitigate that.

I'm sorry that this is a bit disjointed - I've had about a gozillion interuptions since I started to reply and lost track of where I was going with it..........
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
160101-2357 EST

FionaZuppa:

I really don't understand the statement.

Basically a motor voltage rating will depend upon frequency, the number of winding turns, voltage, magnetic core material, and how far the core is driven into saturation. For a given motor and frequency the voltage rating will be proportional to the number of turns.
so, if i were making a motor, why not make one that is multi-use? 380v/50Hz/15hp, same motor can run at 460v/60Hz/20hp, same motor that can wear different nameplates (multi-market use, etc). you make it to work at the higher hp, stepping it down by a tad wont hurt it. thats what i meant by same motor different nameplates, etc.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
so, if i were making a motor, why not make one that is multi-use? 380v/50Hz/15hp, same motor can run at 460v/60Hz/20hp, same motor that can wear different nameplates (multi-market use, etc). you make it to work at the higher hp, stepping it down by a tad wont hurt it. thats what i meant by same motor different nameplates, etc.
You might want to think about the differences between NEMA and IEC.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
so, if i were making a motor, why not make one that is multi-use? 380v/50Hz/15hp, same motor can run at 460v/60Hz/20hp, same motor that can wear different nameplates (multi-market use, etc). you make it to work at the higher hp, stepping it down by a tad wont hurt it. thats what i meant by same motor different nameplates, etc.

I think that was not uncommon thirty years ago. Although I have only had one job to draw on - and all are aware of the dangers of a statistical sample of one. And I don't recall anyone changing the nameplates.

Short term consulting job, reviewing plans for a fish processing plant in Saudia. Motors were all 460V, 60hz, designed for the North American market, operating at 380V, 50hz, turning 2900 or 1450. As I recall, the mechanicals were a bit hesitant to use the full 20% hp increase - fans were a bit small for the reduced rpm. Mechanicals know how to trim the impellers for the required flow at nominal rpm, and then size the motor to fit the required horsepower. Worked just fine.

I don't know if this was common industrial through the world. I don't know if this was common through the world, or just outside of Europe. I don't know when IEC came into their own.

So why isn't a motor built as you suggest? Money. Motors built to IEC specs are incredibly thin. North American industry, its rare to see other than sf1.15.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
so, if i were making a motor, why not make one that is multi-use? 380v/50Hz/15hp, same motor can run at 460v/60Hz/20hp, same motor that can wear different nameplates (multi-market use, etc). you make it to work at the higher hp, stepping it down by a tad wont hurt it. thats what i meant by same motor different nameplates, etc.
That's essentially the way things are, but as Besoeker said, there are different design philosophies between IEC and NEMA. In a nutshell, NEMA design philosophy calls for designing off-the-shelf motors to be useful in the vast majority of applications by looking at the near worst case scenario. IEC design philosophy is to make motors that are more tailored to the exact task necessary and only use what needs to be used. There are all kinds of valid reasons for each approach, some rooted in history and geography. But nonetheless, if you understand the differences, most 380-400 and 440-480V motors can be interchanged across borders, and this is done on a regular basis. Many of the motors sold in both areas are different only on the nameplates. However if you sell a NEMA designed motor in IEC world, it has no problem delivering full torque at the reduced speed, but it will be a larger frame because of being designed for a Service Factor, which means nothing in IEC world. Then if you use an IEC motor in NEMA land, it too delivers rated torque at the higher speed, but will NOT have a Service Factor as we are used to. Those facts limit the interchangeability to some extent.

Another of those differences is in the units of power measurement on the nameplate and that's where people get confused. In North America we still use HP (the UK used to, but has officially changed), in the rest of the world, they use kW. But some of the confusion lies in converting. Yes, there are 746W/HP, but when speaking of motor nameplates, BOTH the HP and kW values expressed are MECHANICAL output, not electrical input. As I said earlier, HP (or mechanical kW) is just a shorthand expression of a given amount of torque at a given speed. So if the torque is the same but the speed is different, the HP or kW is different. But for the majority of machines (that are NOT centrifugal pumps and fans*), what we need is TORQUE, with speed as a consequence that is dealt with in gear/sheave ratios. So if you have a conveyor, milling machine, rock crusher etc., it's fairly easy to deal with the speed change either in the machine design or with something like a VFD, because the beauty of a VFD is that it allows the motor to provide the SAME torque at any speed.

Where you can get hung up in the conversion aspect is if you take the IEC kW rating as ELECTRICAL kW, not mechanical. They use two different terms for "power" in order to differentiate; "absorbed" power and "rated" power. The "rated" kW is the mechanical output, what we often refer to as the shaft power, but what we call the HP of a motor. The electrical power that the motor consumes is called the "absorbed" power, and just like here, is NOT shown on the nameplate. You can infer it by looking at the maximum rated power and efficiency rating, but remember, that is always the MAXIMUM, not what the machine actually uses. That holds true for NEMA motors as well, we just have to convert the mechanical HP to mechanical kW first, then apply the efficiency.

Where the biggest problem lies in import/export machinery powered by AC induction motors is in the market for "230V" class machines. Here in the US, we have more 208V 3 phase systems than 230V. In IEC world, 230V is largely used for single phase, but there are many areas that use 230V 3 phase as well, but never 208V (let's leave Japan out of this for now). So an IEC motor designed for 230V is 230V 50Hz, so it wants a V/Hz ratio of 4.6:1. Here in NA, our 230V 60Hz is going to be at 3.83:1, 17% lower. That means the running torque will be at 83.3%, but more importantly the peak torque output of that motor will vary by the square of the difference, so .833^2 is .69, meaning the peak torque output of that motor is only 69% of what it was designed for. Peak torque (Break Down Torque) is what the motor uses to accelerate, and more importantly RE-accelerate, the motor under load. So even if you downgrade the motor mechanical power by 17%, as some bottom feeder exporters do, the loss of accelerating torque is likely going to result in the motor running hotter and failing sooner than you might expect. Most of the time they will outlast the warranty, which is all the bottom feeders care about, but the end user ends up paying the long term cost. Then if you use that IEC motor on 208V 60Hz, it gets even worse; the difference is 25% instead of 17% and peak torque drops to just 56% of normal, risking a stall. Conversely, if you send a NEMA 230V 60Hz motor to IEC land, the motor will get OVER excited by 20% and over excitation means that the extra voltage will produce MORE torque, which may damage the mechanical components, but will also result in saturating the windings which means more heat for the same amount of work done. They too then don't last as long as they should unless the load is significantly smaller than the motor, something not done in IEC world. Bottom line, despite claims otherwise, its never a good idea to assume a 230V machine will import/export without changing the motor. Whatever someone claims as a working solution will be a compromise (unless a VFD is involved).

* Centrifugal machines like pumps and fans present a different challenge with frequency change because of the Affinity Laws, one of which dictates that the power REQUIRED by the centrifugal machine varies at the CUBE of the speed difference. So if I have a centrifugal pump designed around a 50Hz AC motor speed, and I hook it up to a 60Hz supply, the motor will spin at 120% speed. That means the pump attached to it will demand mechanical power from the motor that is 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 (173%) the amount it required at 50Hz. The motor output power will increase to 120%, but it will still fall way short of what the pump requires.

{Besoeker, you are right, I missed the frequency change issue in stating that current follows torque 1:1...}
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
(edit to add) Slow poster - some of this already cover by jaref in the above post.

I need to size a motor starter for a motor with name plate ratings of
Voltage : 380V three phase
Watts: 11K
FLA: 22
No hp rating
...
I plan on feeding this motor with 480 V. ...

if it is a centrifugal pump, there is at least some potential that the HP used could increase at a higher frequency. ....

... The motor originally ran on 50 Hz and running it at 60 Hz will be a nominal 17% speed increase. On centrifugal pumps or fans under certain conditions this will mean an approximate 40% more torque to keep the impeller above the new full load speed. ...

... A motor designed for 380V 50Hz is the same basic V/Hz ratio as 460V 60Hz, so your motor torque will be the same. But the speed will be 20% faster (60/50). So the HP will increase by 20% to roughly 18HP. ...

By the way, current and torque change together, so since the torque remains the same, the nameplate current will remain the same. ....

You might want to think about the differences between NEMA and IEC.

Lots of good posts. I not really adding anything new.
As noted, the motor will turn 20% faster on 60hz, torque at FLA remains the same, available hp is 1.2X
Now the problem of the load:
If turning a centrifigal pump, per the afinity laws: Power required by the pump = (N1/N2)^3
So, to turn the pump 20% faster will require 1.73X horsepower. And that means the current has to go up - likely 40% - 45% above FLA. As Bes noted, generally IEC motors do not tolerate overload very well. If it is a centrifigal pump, I suspect either the impeller was trimmed, or the motor was severely underloaded when running at 50hz.

If the pump is a positive displacement, and the pressure remains the same under a 20% speed increase, it likely is okay. As noted the motor will put out 20% more hp at FLA.​

So, you have one of these machines connected and running. But you can't take it down, open it up and see what they did.
And, I'm guessing there is no one around to ask what mods were done. Bummer. But doesn't really matter for the question you asked:

If you are buying a NEMA starter, you will be getting a Size 2, rated for 25 hp. Size 1 is too small, only 10hp. Size the CB to match the nameplate FLA, times the appropriate art. 430.52 factor of course.

If you are buying an IEC rated starter, keep in mind the contactor has to break the hghly inductive inrush current. Bes' statement, quoted above, is excellent.

As noted in other posts, be prepared to fix the mechanical if the motor shows overload.

ice
 

Pizza

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
(edit to add) Slow poster - some of this already cover by jaref in the above post.











Lots of good posts. I not really adding anything new.
As noted, the motor will turn 20% faster on 60hz, torque at FLA remains the same, available hp is 1.2X
Now the problem of the load:
If turning a centrifigal pump, per the afinity laws: Power required by the pump = (N1/N2)^3
So, to turn the pump 20% faster will require 1.73X horsepower. And that means the current has to go up - likely 40% - 45% above FLA. As Bes noted, generally IEC motors do not tolerate overload very well. If it is a centrifigal pump, I suspect either the impeller was trimmed, or the motor was severely underloaded when running at 50hz.

If the pump is a positive displacement, and the pressure remains the same under a 20% speed increase, it likely is okay. As noted the motor will put out 20% more hp at FLA.​

So, you have one of these machines connected and running. But you can't take it down, open it up and see what they did.
And, I'm guessing there is no one around to ask what mods were done. Bummer. But doesn't really matter for the question you asked:

If you are buying a NEMA starter, you will be getting a Size 2, rated for 25 hp. Size 1 is too small, only 10hp. Size the CB to match the nameplate FLA, times the appropriate art. 430.52 factor of course.

If you are buying an IEC rated starter, keep in mind the contactor has to break the hghly inductive inrush current. Bes' statement, quoted above, is excellent.

As noted in other posts, be prepared to fix the mechanical if the motor shows overload.

ice

Yes I did end up with installing a size 2 NEMA magnetic starter. I threw a 480v non fused disconnect next to it and will toss in a 30 amp breaker next time I go back there, sometime this week.

I had the dog house opened on the other motor while it was running to see how it was wired, I only tested voltage though and saw it was fed with 480 v.
I should've taken an amp reading on it but dint think of it at the time.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Yes I did end up with installing a size 2 NEMA magnetic starter. I threw a 480v non fused disconnect next to it and will toss in a 30 amp breaker next time I go back there, sometime this week. ...
30A TM CB for a 22A FLA motor? That's pretty small. I'd recomend 60A. see art 430.52

And, of course, 115% to 130% overloads (based on the 22A FLA). See art 430.32. Contrary to popular belief on this forum, the overloads do not limit the load on the motor. If the mechanical system has the motor overloaded, the only thing the overloads do is shut off the motor prior to it catching fire. If the motor is drawing too much current, fix the mechanical system.


... I had the dog house opened on the other motor while it was running to see how it was wired, I only tested voltage though and saw it was fed with 480 v.
I should've taken an amp reading on it but dint think of it at the time.
Bummer. Maybe next time it is available

Edit to add code articles .. And clean up the stray bitstream
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
That's essentially the way things are, but as Besoeker said, there are different design philosophies between IEC and NEMA. In a nutshell, NEMA design philosophy calls for designing off-the-shelf motors to be useful in the vast majority of applications by looking at the near worst case scenario. IEC design philosophy is to make motors that are more tailored to the exact task necessary and only use what needs to be used. There are all kinds of valid reasons for each approach, some rooted in history and geography. But nonetheless, if you understand the differences, most 380-400 and 440-480V motors can be interchanged across borders, and this is done on a regular basis. Many of the motors sold in both areas are different only on the nameplates. However if you sell a NEMA designed motor in IEC world, it has no problem delivering full torque at the reduced speed, but it will be a larger frame because of being designed for a Service Factor, which means nothing in IEC world. Then if you use an IEC motor in NEMA land, it too delivers rated torque at the higher speed, but will NOT have a Service Factor as we are used to. Those facts limit the interchangeability to some extent.

Another of those differences is in the units of power measurement on the nameplate and that's where people get confused. In North America we still use HP (the UK used to, but has officially changed), in the rest of the world, they use kW. But some of the confusion lies in converting. Yes, there are 746W/HP, but when speaking of motor nameplates, BOTH the HP and kW values expressed are MECHANICAL output, not electrical input. As I said earlier, HP (or mechanical kW) is just a shorthand expression of a given amount of torque at a given speed. So if the torque is the same but the speed is different, the HP or kW is different. But for the majority of machines (that are NOT centrifugal pumps and fans*), what we need is TORQUE, with speed as a consequence that is dealt with in gear/sheave ratios. So if you have a conveyor, milling machine, rock crusher etc., it's fairly easy to deal with the speed change either in the machine design or with something like a VFD, because the beauty of a VFD is that it allows the motor to provide the SAME torque at any speed.

Where you can get hung up in the conversion aspect is if you take the IEC kW rating as ELECTRICAL kW, not mechanical. They use two different terms for "power" in order to differentiate; "absorbed" power and "rated" power. The "rated" kW is the mechanical output, what we often refer to as the shaft power, but what we call the HP of a motor. The electrical power that the motor consumes is called the "absorbed" power, and just like here, is NOT shown on the nameplate. You can infer it by looking at the maximum rated power and efficiency rating, but remember, that is always the MAXIMUM, not what the machine actually uses. That holds true for NEMA motors as well, we just have to convert the mechanical HP to mechanical kW first, then apply the efficiency.

Where the biggest problem lies in import/export machinery powered by AC induction motors is in the market for "230V" class machines. Here in the US, we have more 208V 3 phase systems than 230V. In IEC world, 230V is largely used for single phase, but there are many areas that use 230V 3 phase as well, but never 208V (let's leave Japan out of this for now). So an IEC motor designed for 230V is 230V 50Hz, so it wants a V/Hz ratio of 4.6:1. Here in NA, our 230V 60Hz is going to be at 3.83:1, 17% lower. That means the running torque will be at 83.3%, but more importantly the peak torque output of that motor will vary by the square of the difference, so .833^2 is .69, meaning the peak torque output of that motor is only 69% of what it was designed for. Peak torque (Break Down Torque) is what the motor uses to accelerate, and more importantly RE-accelerate, the motor under load. So even if you downgrade the motor mechanical power by 17%, as some bottom feeder exporters do, the loss of accelerating torque is likely going to result in the motor running hotter and failing sooner than you might expect. Most of the time they will outlast the warranty, which is all the bottom feeders care about, but the end user ends up paying the long term cost. Then if you use that IEC motor on 208V 60Hz, it gets even worse; the difference is 25% instead of 17% and peak torque drops to just 56% of normal, risking a stall. Conversely, if you send a NEMA 230V 60Hz motor to IEC land, the motor will get OVER excited by 20% and over excitation means that the extra voltage will produce MORE torque, which may damage the mechanical components, but will also result in saturating the windings which means more heat for the same amount of work done. They too then don't last as long as they should unless the load is significantly smaller than the motor, something not done in IEC world. Bottom line, despite claims otherwise, its never a good idea to assume a 230V machine will import/export without changing the motor. Whatever someone claims as a working solution will be a compromise (unless a VFD is involved).

* Centrifugal machines like pumps and fans present a different challenge with frequency change because of the Affinity Laws, one of which dictates that the power REQUIRED by the centrifugal machine varies at the CUBE of the speed difference. So if I have a centrifugal pump designed around a 50Hz AC motor speed, and I hook it up to a 60Hz supply, the motor will spin at 120% speed. That means the pump attached to it will demand mechanical power from the motor that is 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 (173%) the amount it required at 50Hz. The motor output power will increase to 120%, but it will still fall way short of what the pump requires.

That's as clear as mud. I try to keep things simple, direct, and relevant.
 
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