I dont think I should do this!

[1haz]

A very large department store has asked me to "hang" numerous Chandlers throughout their store. How they want me to do it is Zip Tie the Chandlers to the ceiling grid and install a cord cap on the end of the wires, plug it into an adapter which connects in their track light. They said that is how they display them and when one sells they can pull it down easily. They have been a great customer for many years but I don't think I will be doing this for them.. What do you guys think?

 

[kwired]

Since they know all about how it should be done, seems they are qualified to do it themselves:roll:

 

[GoldDigger]

I think that treating them as permanently installed lighting under the NEC would not be necessary or practical.

But at the same time I do not see supporting their weight with zip ties as safe and I have misgivings about powering them from lighting track adapters instead of installing a grid of permanent receptacles.
The cord cap used would have to have functional strain relief at a minimum, and using wire nuts in a box to connect to a flexible cord seems more appropriate.

Is the ceiling grid designed for this purpose or is it standard suspended ceiling hardware?
You might take a look at a couple of lighting stores to see how they do it.

 

[iwire]

I have misgivings about powering them from lighting track adapters instead of installing a grid of permanent receptacles.

I would want to see it first, there are companies that make heavy duty commercial track for this type of application.

Zip ties do seem cheesy, and supporting directly off the grid is not a great plan.

You might take a look at a couple of lighting stores to see how they do it.

I was thinking the same thing. I have spent a ton of time working in Lowes and HD but I don't think I every noticed how they do it beyond the fact we install a contactor switched bus duct with 42 single pole breakers above that department to provide power to the display lighting

 

[1haz]

The reason they are calling me to do it is they have corporate managers inspecting the store and they cannot hang the amount of Lights quickly enough. The grid doesn't have tiles in it, its a painted open grid. Connecting the cord caps on the lamp wire and floating it up to the track is where I refused. I explained the liability of Zip tying and they kinda agree but said this is how all their stores do it. I did give them a price a few years ago setting boxes for the display lights only so maybe this will get them to do it the right way, or they will find someone else to do it with the zip ties. Thanks guys,

 

[templdl]

Since they know all about how it should be done, seems they are qualified to do it themselves:roll:

Ditto! The inspector should be thrilled about it.

 

[mgookin]

There are zip ties with breaking strengths of hundreds of pounds.

And I've seen grid systems for hanging retail display fixtures, as OP is saying, with no tile. It's not your standard lay-in tile grid, it's made for the purpose.

This very well could be a legitimate installation.

If that track light adapter is made for the purpose, and it's not overloading anything, why would it not be ok?

 

[iwire]

There are zip ties with breaking strengths of hundreds of pounds.

For sure, but you know that is not what they are using.

And I've seen grid systems for hanging retail display fixtures, as OP is saying, with no tile. It's not your standard lay-in tile grid, it's made for the purpose.

For sure again, but he did not describe it like that in his first post.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There are adapter for the chandelier to hang directly to the track

 

[cowboyjwc]

The term I've heard used is a "light cloud" and is usually supported by all thread to the structure above. I've never actually looked at how they hang the lights though.

 

[iwire]

The term I've heard used is a "light cloud" and is usually supported by all thread to the structure above. I've never actually looked at how they hang the lights though.

Boston Retail is one supplier.

http://emea.boston-group.com/lightfan-clouds

 

[1haz]

There are zip ties with breaking strengths of hundreds of pounds.

And I've seen grid systems for hanging retail display fixtures, as OP is saying, with no tile. It's not your standard lay-in tile grid, it's made for the purpose.

This very well could be a legitimate installation.

If that track light adapter is made for the purpose, and it's not overloading anything, why would it not be ok?

Not sure if its what its rated for. The only thing on the grid right now is the track lights, besides the lights they installed themselves. The adaptor shown above is similar to what they have but it has a female end that you can plug into. The Zip Ties they are using are large but just seems like a big liability if something happened. I guess the best thing would be to do is run it by the inspector.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Not sure if its what its rated for. The only thing on the grid right now is the track lights, besides the lights they installed themselves. The adaptor shown above is similar to what they have but it has a female end that you can plug into. The Zip Ties they are using are large but just seems like a big liability if something happened. I guess the best thing would be to do is run it by the inspector.

if you used something good like a T&B ty rap that was a 3/8" one,
it's not going to go anywhere, lashed around the MAIN RUNNER

my concern would be overloading the lighting track, if the lights are
incandescent. LED's wouldn't be drawing that much.

my assumption is this is a conventional t bar ceiling, without tiles.

now, the downside.... if anything falls on anyone, for any reason,
TAG, you're it! all you need is a lame customer or employee to get
up there and cut loose a light, and drop it on someone, and you have
ZERO defense on your "installation".

"now, in all this excitement, did i use six ty raps, or five?
do you feel lucky, punk? WELL, DO YOU?

- with apologies to clint eastwood.

 

[kenman215]

if you used something good like a T&B ty rap that was a 3/8" one,
it's not going to go anywhere, lashed around the MAIN RUNNER

my concern would be overloading the lighting track, if the lights are
incandescent. LED's wouldn't be drawing that much.

my assumption is this is a conventional t bar ceiling, without tiles.

now, the downside.... if anything falls on anyone, for any reason,
TAG, you're it! all you need is a lame customer or employee to get
up there and cut loose a light, and drop it on someone, and you have
ZERO defense on your "installation".

"now, in all this excitement, did i use six ty raps, or five?
do you feel lucky, punk? WELL, DO YOU?

- with apologies to clint eastwood.

You could always test the load on the track and circuit feeding, making sure the lights don't overload it. Then tell your customer that you'll certify the electrical install, but want them to sign a liability waiver on the fixture mounting. If they're completely sure of the zip tie methodology, they shouldn't have a problem signing it.

 

[jap]

Not sure if its what its rated for. The only thing on the grid right now is the track lights, besides the lights they installed themselves. The adaptor shown above is similar to what they have but it has a female end that you can plug into. The Zip Ties they are using are large but just seems like a big liability if something happened. I guess the best thing would be to do is run it by the inspector.

Go with your gut and what makes you feel comfortable with the install.
If you dont, at least get them to sign some type of form relieving you of reliability if thats the way they want them hung.

Zipties sound like a quick solution until one of the fixtures falls on someone's head and they're pointing the finger at you for an explanation.

The people who get hurt will be the ones who will come looking for answers, not the people your working for.


JAP>

 

[gadfly56]

Not sure if its what its rated for. The only thing on the grid right now is the track lights, besides the lights they installed themselves. The adaptor shown above is similar to what they have but it has a female end that you can plug into. The Zip Ties they are using are large but just seems like a big liability if something happened. I guess the best thing would be to do is run it by the inspector.

You could use safety cables. They are short lengths of aircraft wire cable that are used to secure theater lights in case the clamp lets loose. See here for an example. If you are using the zip ties to snug up the fixtures so they don't bob around, use the cable as a backup.

 

[YourElectricianOC]

I think that treating them as permanently installed lighting under the NEC would not be necessary or practical.

But at the same time I do not see supporting their weight with zip ties as safe and I have misgivings about powering them from lighting track adapters instead of installing a grid of permanent receptacles.
The cord cap used would have to have functional strain relief at a minimum, and using wire nuts in a box to connect to a flexible cord seems more appropriate.

Is the ceiling grid designed for this purpose or is it standard suspended ceiling hardware?
You might take a look at a couple of lighting stores to see how they do it.

I've noticed that the local HD and Lowe's don't treat their lighting displays as permanent installations, nor do they seem to have them done in any manner of code compliance, with romex and wirenuts all over the place.

However, whenever I get something from a lighting only store in this area, their fixtures are all in metal J boxes. Hundreds of them, all over the ceiling. I always wonder how the guy who did that job must be enjoying his retirement, because that had to have been a sweet job. :roll:

 

[mgookin]

3M has cable ties with a 175lb load rating.

 

[iwire]

3M has cable ties with a 175lb load rating.

OK so we have to independently support troughers that sit in the grid to protect firefighters but we are going with tie wraps alone for fixtures that are not sitting in the grid.

A bit of heat from a fire and the fixtures fall like rain.

Sorry I would not use tie wraps.

 

[JFletcher]

what about using some kind of heavy duty carabiner or a threaded one like this:

https://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/p/2-5-16-threaded-connector-heavy-duty-carabiner-p800102

to secure the chandelier chain to the ceiling?