Single pole breaker 2 circuits NEC code violation ?

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KevinG427

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Basically having a debate whether or not these single pole circuit breakers are allowed to have multi circuits or not.

I will upload a link of the pictures ASAP

But basically can some single pole breakers allow multiple circuits ??

And would be nice if u could show me what section in the nec since I have to prove this guy what is right and what is wrong.


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If you are asking if you can put two wires under the lug of a breaker to feed two circuits, then the answer is yes and no. If the breaker is listed for it you may, but other wise you would have to splice the two circuits together and pigtail them to the breaker.
 
K8MHZ said:
Re: two wires under one lug or spliced together, technically, wouldn't they be the same circuit if they were connected to the same circuit breaker?
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I think not. If they two wires serve separate loads, then they are separate circuits. If they serve the same load, then perhaps you have a parallel installation, which may or may not be allowed. Also, whatever you have for neutral wires, this would not be a MWBC.

 
charlie b said:
I think not. If they two wires serve separate loads, then they are separate circuits. If they serve the same load, then perhaps you have a parallel installation, which may or may not be allowed. Also, whatever you have for neutral wires, this would not be a MWBC.
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A simple example of what the OP might be suggesting.

A breaker supplies two receptacles. The receptacles are in the same room as the panel board, but on opposite sides of the CB, so the electrician ran one wire from the CB to one receptacle and a second wire from the same CB to the other receptacle.

How is this functionally any different than running a single wire from the Cb to the first receptacle and than on to the second receptacle?

You seem to be claiming there are 2 circuits in the first example and just one in the second.
 
petersonra said:
You seem to be claiming there are 2 circuits in the first example and just one in the second.
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Yes I am.
petersonra said:
How is this functionally any different than running a single wire from the Cb to the first receptacle and than on to the second receptacle?
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It is functionally different in two ways.
  • First, a single wire from the CB to the first receptacle and then to the second receptacle is a series circuit. Thus, 100% the current that flows to whatever is plugged into the second receptacle will first flow through the wire leading from the CB to the first receptacle. In the other installation, the two receptacles are not in series, and they are not in parallel. The current flowing through one receptacle will not have also passed through the wire serving the other receptacle.
  • Secondly, and this is essentially the same thing said a different way, if the two wires leave the CB and head in different directions, you could completely disconnect one without reconnecting anything (i.e., just cut the wire), and not have any impact on the operation of the other. That is not possible in the series circuit configuration.

 
charlie b said:
Yes I am.

It is functionally different in two ways.
  • First, a single wire from the CB to the first receptacle and then to the second receptacle is a series circuit. Thus, 100% the current that flows to whatever is plugged into the second receptacle will first flow through the wire leading from the CB to the first receptacle. In the other installation, the two receptacles are not in series, and they are not in parallel. The current flowing through one receptacle will not have also passed through the wire serving the other receptacle.
  • Secondly, and this is essentially the same thing said a different way, if the two wires leave the CB and head in different directions, you could completely disconnect one without reconnecting anything (i.e., just cut the wire), and not have any impact on the operation of the other. That is not possible in the series circuit configuration.
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So what if the wire goes straight down from the panel and into a j box and we bring the wires from the recpts on opposite sides of the room into it?
 
I think that following the strict NEC definition the wires are all part of one branch circuit in either case. But does being part of the same branch circuit make them one circuit? Hmmmm....
 
charlie b said:
Yes I am.

It is functionally different in two ways.
  • First, a single wire from the CB to the first receptacle and then to the second receptacle is a series circuit. Thus, 100% the current that flows to whatever is plugged into the second receptacle will first flow through the wire leading from the CB to the first receptacle. In the other installation, the two receptacles are not in series, and they are not in parallel. The current flowing through one receptacle will not have also passed through the wire serving the other receptacle.
  • Secondly, and this is essentially the same thing said a different way, if the two wires leave the CB and head in different directions, you could completely disconnect one without reconnecting anything (i.e., just cut the wire), and not have any impact on the operation of the other. That is not possible in the series circuit configuration.

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In my opinion all of the conductors that receive their supply from a single OCPD are part of a single circuit.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
In my opinion all of the conductors that receive their supply from a single OCPD are part of a single circuit.
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In my opinion, that opinion is not consistent with the NEC definition of "branch circuit." :happyno: You will note that that definition does not include the OCPD as being a part of the branch circuit. The branch circuit comprises the wires between the OCPD and the outlets. :happyyes:

 
ActionDave said:
So what if the wire goes straight down from the panel and into a j box and we bring the wires from the recpts on opposite sides of the room into it?
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That constitutes a combined series/parallel circuit - one circuit. In the previous discussions, we were dealing with a series circuit in one instance, and the other instance had neither a series nor a parallel configuration.

 
charlie b said:
In my opinion, that opinion is not consistent with the NEC definition of "branch circuit." :happyno: You will note that that definition does not include the OCPD as being a part of the branch circuit. The branch circuit comprises the wires between the OCPD and the outlets. :happyyes:
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You quoted it. " ... the wires", not "the wire going in one direction and those attached to it downstream".
If there is one branch OCPD then there is one circuit downstream of it.

We could also digress into whether a single wire can be both a feeder and part of a branch circuit. And whether the U ground should be on top. :)
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
In my opinion all of the conductors that receive their supply from a single OCPD are part of a single circuit.
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I agree. Would a single pole 20 amp OCPD supplying two 12/2 cables feeding kitchen counter receptacles meet the NEC requirement for a minimum of two SABC's?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
In my opinion all of the conductors that receive their supply from a single OCPD are part of a single circuit.
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infinity said:
I agree. Would a single pole 20 amp OCPD supplying two 12/2 cables feeding kitchen counter receptacles meet the NEC requirement for a minimum of two SABC's?
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No.

But we need to clarify Don's comment, as a 2-pole OCPD can supply either one or two branch circuits.
 
charlie b said:
Yes I am.

It is functionally different in two ways.
  • First, a single wire from the CB to the first receptacle and then to the second receptacle is a series circuit.

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No, it's a parallel circuit. Loads in receptacle A are in parallel with loads in receptacle B irrespective of whether a wire set runs from A to B or if a separate wire set runs from the breaker to each receptacle.
 
charlie b said:
That constitutes a combined series/parallel circuit - one circuit. In the previous discussions, we were dealing with a series circuit in one instance, and the other instance had neither a series nor a parallel configuration.

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No, it's only parallel. The configuration is different between the two ways to wire it, but it's still just a parallel circuit. None of the loads are ever in series, and without loads you don't really have a circuit.
 
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