Multi color murray

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keith gigabyte

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New Kensington, Pa
Ran into a panel today thought it was a zinzco at first glance. Multi colored breakers blue red green etc. But side of breakers stamped Murray. The breakers are failing and blowing out the side of breaker. No evidence of moisture and no faults just a few over current conditions..2 space heaters plugged in. Who knows about these panels?
 
Is there a label in the cabinet? Start with that, breakers possibly fit but are not same make as the panel.
 
Colored handles were pretty common for a while. Zinsco, Bryant and Murray had colored handles. I believe the colored handle Murray breakers disappeared when Crouse-Hinds took over the line.

If only the breakers failed and there is no damage to the buss bar you can just replace the breakers with Murray/Siemens breakers.
 
Was just wondering vintage. I have recommended complete panel change out. If I change just breakers and leave tub and bus in it will more than likely not meet label and listing requirements
 
keith gigabyte said:
Was just wondering vintage. I have recommended complete panel change out. If I change just breakers and leave tub and bus in it will more than likely not meet label and listing requirements
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If the buss is not damaged I wouldn't change it. Why would changing the breakers be a listing problem? Just use Siemens/Murray breakers and you are using the listed breakers for the panel.
 
keith gigabyte said:
Was just wondering vintage. I have recommended complete panel change out. If I change just breakers and leave tub and bus in it will more than likely not meet label and listing requirements
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I agree with Curt. The modern Siemans/Murray breaker is the way to go (unless there is other damage / wear not mentioned in this thread).

IIRC, those old colored handled Murrays had the distinction of being a 100% magnetic actuated overcurrent protective device. I still have a clear-sided trade show sample that shows the way the running overload currents tripped just as well as the instantaneous.
 
So no one is concerned the side of these breakers are blowing out?

Everyone is fine assuming the fault current is not over the breaker rating?


Seems odd to me.
 
keith gigabyte said:
Was just wondering vintage. I have recommended complete panel change out. If I change just breakers and leave tub and bus in it will more than likely not meet label and listing requirements
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The vintage is certainly old enough to warrant replacement. IIRC, those old colored handled breakers also say "Murray, Brooklyn, NY" on the case. When was the last time any manufacturing was done in Brooklyn? It's safe to say it was a very long time ago. Any panel I encounter of that vintage is usually jammed with twins or has some kind of water damage, and needs to be replaced.
 
iwire said:
So no one is concerned the side of these breakers are blowing out?

Everyone is fine assuming the fault current is not over the breaker rating?


Seems odd to me.
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I agree that is a possibility. If the situation is commercial or industrial, with a large transformer nearby or if the Murray panel is an older, remaining part in an upgraded electrical system that has poor fault current coordination.

However, if the transformer serves the property overhead, and is in a largely older residential area of stand alone single family homes, I suspect the more likely cause of the breaker body damage would come from a long history of resetting the breaker again and again without reducing the overloading problem.

But this is all conjecture. . . I won't know without more detail from the OP, and seeing pictures or the actual location.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I agree that is a possibility. If the situation is commercial or industrial, with a large transformer nearby or if the Murray panel is an older, remaining part in an upgraded electrical system that has poor fault current coordination.

However, if the transformer serves the property overhead, and is in a largely older residential area of stand alone single family homes, I suspect the more likely cause of the breaker body damage would come from a long history of resetting the breaker again and again without reducing the overloading problem.

But this is all conjecture. . . I won't know without more detail from the OP, and seeing pictures or the actual location.
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Exactly, we don't know so we should be talking about it.

The OP gave us no clue at about where this is located.

Why would the sides blow out?
 
iwire said:
Why would the sides blow out?
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And what does that look like? Note that the OP seems to be saying "a side" of a breaker, not sides of a breaker.

Around Thanksgiving I added a small appliance branch circuit to an apartment kitchen counter that where this new counter receptacle took the appliance load off of the old 15 Amp general lighting branch circuit. This was in a 1910 late Victorian triplex (historic finished attic). The owners and occupants had been comfortable simply resetting the 15 Amp Bryant breaker . . . literally. . . for years.

I was called because the breaker had gotten so stiff that the owner couldn't physically reset it.

When I removed it, although there was no bus damage from heating or oxidation, the flat bakelite side of the breaker body was cracked open in an asterisk shape and discolored to a non-reflective black and rough and uneven (wavy, no longer smooth, shiny black.) This heat damaged area was about 1-1/2" to 2" in diameter.

I could easily have described that as "blown out".

The PoCo transformer was a backyard overhead drop and two spans away in a 100% historic residential district.
 
Damage to the sides of the small thin and twin breakers is pretty common if they have been subject to long period of heave loads or repeated resets. The OP said it was feeding space heaters so who knows how much load has been the the breaker and for how long. In order for the breaker to be so small the mechanism has to be half the size and the plastic very thin.
 
curt swartz said:
so who knows
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Exactly, who here knows the fault current at that panel?

No one, I stand by my assertion a professional would look into the fault current level is.

I agree with Al, if it's a typical dwelling unit overhead feed chances are very good there is no issue.

On the other hand, if it's an apartment building, or on a poco network the fault current could be very high.

It is an issue that should be looked into an I am surprised only one other person thinks so.
 
al hildenbrand said:
And what does that look like? Note that the OP seems to be saying "a side" of a breaker, not sides of a breaker.

Around Thanksgiving I added a small appliance branch circuit to an apartment kitchen counter that where this new counter receptacle took the appliance load off of the old 15 Amp general lighting branch circuit. This was in a 1910 late Victorian triplex (historic finished attic). The owners and occupants had been comfortable simply resetting the 15 Amp Bryant breaker . . . literally. . . for years.

I was called because the breaker had gotten so stiff that the owner couldn't physically reset it.

When I removed it, although there was no bus damage from heating or oxidation, the flat bakelite side of the breaker body was cracked open in an asterisk shape and discolored to a non-reflective black and rough and uneven (wavy, no longer smooth, shiny black.) This heat damaged area was about 1-1/2" to 2" in diameter.

I could easily have described that as "blown out".

The PoCo transformer was a backyard overhead drop and two spans away in a 100% historic residential district.
Click to expand...

That settles it, the OP has nothing to look into. :roll:
 
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