Disco, Mitsubishi mini splits.

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kwired

Electron manager
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NE Nebraska
Thanks, I fixed it. I was looking at the 2012 UPC and IBC earlier today.


Agreed, per 430.111. I assume a snap switch is an air-break switch under 430.111(B)(1)?


This is my sticking point--430.111 does not explicitly say that. Is there some other reference?

Thanks, Wayne

IDK. There are situations where the branch circuit device is also the controller and is a breaker installed in a panelboard. So do we also need an additional controller disconnect in those cases, and if so how do you propose to install one?
 

wwhitney

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IDK. There are situations where the branch circuit device is also the controller and is a breaker installed in a panelboard. So do we also need an additional controller disconnect in those cases, and if so how do you propose to install one?
Good question, I was wondering the same.

I just don't see how a single device can be a disconnecting means for itself, so I don't read 430.111 as saying the motor controller, the motor disconnect, and the controller disconnect can all be a single switch or circuit breaker.

Cheers, Wayne
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If you had a snap switch for a controller, and if you need to have another disconnect for the controller, which could be a snap switch, now you have to label one as the controller and the other as the disconnect - so that you can cause confusion for the user I guess. I still think if it meets requirements for controller as well as disconnect that it can serve both purposes. I do realize it isn't really all that clear in print, I have always installed things that way when the situation arises and have never had any issue with inspectors on it that I can recall.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
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I would say that the motor controller is internal to the unit, controlled by thermostat. The switch is only a disconnect.
True, for the situation in OP we are dealing with an appliance, any motors inside already have controllers integral to the appliance and are covered by any listing not the NEC. NEC only covers the need for any disconnecting means in the circuit ahead of the appliance, but may allow one integral to the appliance to be used instead of a field installed disconnect.
 

wwhitney

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I would say that the motor controller is internal to the unit, controlled by thermostat. The switch is only a disconnect.
In my example, to help understand 430.109(B), it's just a dumb bath fan. No internal controller or humidistat. The snap switch is the only controller.

Cheers, Wayne
 
FWIW, the state of Oregon's chief inspector has issued an interpretation that says that the inside unit does not require it's own disconnect if the external unit which supplies power to the internal unit has a LOTO disconnect:

Indoor components with a unit switch that complies with NEC Article 424.19(C) or 422.34 are adequate to meet the intent of the OESC for personnel protection. If there is no switch on the indoor unit, Article 422.31(A) applies, and a lockable disconnect at the outdoor unit shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means.

The 18K BTU unit from Fujitsu I was studying has a plate for the inside unit at 0.3A (under 300VA), and a 64W motor (which at 746W/HP is 0.086HP), which is under 1/8th, so it falls under 422.31(A).

If you were to want to install a disconnect at the air handler though, you would indeed need to disconnect all three wires, including the communications port. The communication line, at least on the Fujitsu, is an optically isolated bidirectional serial communication link where either side of the wire can supply power, and either side can drive the wire from one pole to the other (changing the serial bit from high to low and vise versa). This is also how it appears multiple indoor units can communicate with the outdoor unit as the communication link is more of a bus and not a point to point communication wire.

The communication line is not standardized across brands, so other makes may vary, but I think it's safe to assume that with the condenser powered on, that the S3 communication line could carry line voltage.

The other question that comes up frequently is how the indoor unit can be wired using 14/4 if the primary is 12/2 breakered at 20A. At least on the Fujitsu, the secondary wiring to the indoor unit is fused at 5A inside the condenser. I would be surprised if others that required a larger breaker than 15A didn't have the same type of scheme.

Hope that helps.
 

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
FWIW, the state of Oregon's chief inspector has issued an interpretation that says that the inside unit does not require it's own disconnect if the external unit which supplies power to the internal unit has a LOTO disconnect:

Indoor components with a unit switch that complies with NEC Article 424.19(C) or 422.34 are adequate to meet the intent of the OESC for personnel protection. If there is no switch on the indoor unit, Article 422.31(A) applies, and a lockable disconnect at the outdoor unit shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means.
I know you just quoted what the Oregon chief mentioned but 422.31(A) doesn't mention the disconnecting means needing to be lockable.


In the PDF you attached he mentions 424.19 which does require a lockable disconnect, but IMO 424 doesn't apply to these units unless they would have back up resistance heat in them.
 
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