Permit for portable?

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RickLight

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I need a clear code reference that portable gear being placed or moved isn't 'electrical construction' and therefore shouldn't require a permit.


Here is the story from a friend who is a stagehand. An inspector recently claimed a permit is needed to set up theatrical lighting. The job was placing a few fixtures and plugging them into the permanently installed receptacles. He probably used some extension cords.



  • No local codes address the issue directly. It's all pretty straight NFPA70 from the state level on down.
  • This is not 'temporary' it is 'portable' and the time something is in place ranges from hours to years.
  • All luminaires and cords are portable equipment with NRTL listed plugs and connectors, properly powered from OCPDs.
  • The only tool used is a wrench for a mounting clamp and minor luminaire adjustments. No wires in screw terminals, bare copper is never seen unless something goes wrong. :weeping:
  • Theatrical dimmers and power distribution look a bit weird at first glance, but are NRTL listed and follow NEC in general and 520 specifically, of course. These are available both as permanently installed and portable versions. I'm only talking about the portable side. Large systems are typically powered using single conductors with 'cam-lok' style plugs and receptacles rated to 400A.
  • Best I can find from inside the theatrical side is that only NYC requires an electrician when a Broadway show is being installed. Knowledgeable folks believe its just for the permit fees. Broadway shows are huge projects with lots of money in play. We all know NYC likes their own rules.
  • Inspection is welcome any time of course. We routinely have Fire Chiefs/Marshals/Inspectors/etc on site counting crowds and such.

I believe this is not construction activity in any form and no permit is needed.

In my 40 years I've never heard of such a thing. If enforced this could apply to churches using stage lighting (nearly all), bars, event centers, hotel ballrooms and maybe outdoor festivals. Do you realize how many churches and bars are in even small cities? Can you imagine inspections early Sunday morning? One could take the extreme view and say that this would prevent charging your phone at Starbucks!
 
I think you'll have a hard time finding the negative reference; what does the inspector cite? IMHO using cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment is never construction itself. Might be covered by some of the 500's (520, 525, 590), but that's about it.
 
The NEC does not have anything to do with permits, inspections or inspectors.

Those rules are made locally and they can very well require a permit inspection for the work you describe.

For instance in my area any carnival or fair that comes to town, even with code and plug connected equipment is required to be inspected.
 
iwire said:
The NEC does not have anything to do with permits, inspections or inspectors.

Those rules are made locally and they can very well require a permit inspection for the work you describe.

For instance in my area any carnival or fair that comes to town, even with code and plug connected equipment is required to be inspected.
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Copycat.:)
 
My guess is that the inspector is distinguishing this from moving floor and desk lamps and charging cell phones by the fact that tools are often required.
That said, I have never heard of this inspection requirement inside permanent buildings with building wiring.
 
RickLight said:
  • This is not 'temporary' it is 'portable' and the time something is in place ranges from hours to years.
Click to expand...


  • You seem to be a lot into that distinction even though the NEC does not define either and uses both terms.

    It is in fact temporary along with being portable.
 
Just out of curiosity, how many members have to pull a permit to replace a plug and cord connected dishwasher? Or dryer? Assuming that all outlets are already in place and have been in use.
 
GoldDigger said:
Just out of curiosity, how many members have to pull a permit to replace a plug and cord connected dishwasher? Or dryer? Assuming that all outlets are already in place and have been in use.
Click to expand...

You know it is not going to be like that. :)

They probably have a rule requiring permits for events. Does that mean the cub scout meeting needs a permit? No.

But a traveling show I can see them wanting to take a look at.

Bottom line it is up to each area to make these rules. We are hearing what the inspector said third hand as it is. And one persons 'couple of lights' is anothers 'dimmer panel alligator clip fed from the mains of a panel'. :)
 
iwire said:
You know it is not going to be like that. :)

They probably have a rule requiring permits for events. Does that mean the cub scout meeting needs a permit? No.

But a traveling show I can see them wanting to take a look at.

Bottom line it is up to each area to make these rules. We are hearing what the inspector said third hand as it is. And one persons 'couple of lights' is anothers 'dimmer panel alligator clip fed from the mains of a panel'. :)
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Yes, not an NEC issue, though it does cover all the various parts and pieces. I'm mostly hoping for something I don't know about.

This wasn't for an event but for the fixtures and cables, I think it was for a church. There is a large difference between being within the occupancy permit for a building and setting up in a pasture somewhere.

Thanks for trying!
 
It was kind of buried in an earlier reply, but as you also pointed out, article 520 "Theaters, Audience Areas of Motion Picture and Television Studios, Performance Areas, and Similar Locations" applies. Clearly allowable. Permits are a local jurisdiction issue, however. Where is your friend located?
 
wondering if the locale has special pricing on such permit, probably more just a safety inspection because it involves the public, electric, and fixturing. i was just down in Mexico, a few of the shops had lighting (here in US we would just call it temp construction lighting), where the wires were just two thhn's (or the not-so-like) individually stapled to the rafters as they made their way around the place. probably been like that for past 15yrs. i guess being individually stapled passed safety hazard checks :eek:hmy:

why not just call and ask the permitting dept?
 
RickLight said:
I need a clear code reference that portable gear being placed or moved isn't 'electrical construction' and therefore shouldn't require a permit.


Here is the story from a friend who is a stagehand. An inspector recently claimed a permit is needed to set up theatrical lighting. The job was placing a few fixtures and plugging them into the permanently installed receptacles. He probably used some extension cords. ...
Click to expand...

That's a great question.
And there are many different answers.

You haven't told us where the project is, so we can't give you anything you can rely on.
You also have not clarified as to whether it's live performance lighting (theater), a motion picture set, a broadcast tv studio, or something else.

Whatever statute or ordinance requires permits & inspections may or may not specifically address your question.
 
mgookin said:
That's a great question.
And there are many different answers.

You haven't told us where the project is, so we can't give you anything you can rely on.
You also have not clarified as to whether it's live performance lighting (theater), a motion picture set, a broadcast tv studio, or something else.

Whatever statute or ordinance requires permits & inspections may or may not specifically address your question.
Click to expand...

I've tried to avoid raising any local hackles as I'm not directly involved in any of this. Apparently somebody had a heated discussion with the inspector in question and so personalities may be involved as well, never a good thing. Also I'm not considering the original job, but looking to the future and what other work might be impacted, here or elsewhere.

I recall that the site was a church that was adding to it's system. For reference theaters, studios, movie locations, churches, rock concerts and such use much the same equipment and techniques. All the above have audiences ranging from dozens to thousands. The city does have a line There is an IBC section exempting theater scenery from a permit, but electrical is always different.

The city has this line:
"No person may place, install, alter, change, add to, or cause or allow to be installed, altered, changed or added, any wires, apparatus or fixtures for the use of electricity in any building without first obtaining an electrical permit. A person must obtain a separate permit for each job."

​
Seems a bit over expansive to me. We can't plug in a computer, charge a phone or anything with thin exceptions of for building/home owners. :(
 
RickLight said:
I've tried to avoid raising any local hackles as I'm not directly involved in any of this. Apparently somebody had a heated discussion with the inspector in question and so personalities may be involved as well, never a good thing. Also I'm not considering the original job, but looking to the future and what other work might be impacted, here or elsewhere.

I recall that the site was a church that was adding to it's system. For reference theaters, studios, movie locations, churches, rock concerts and such use much the same equipment and techniques. All the above have audiences ranging from dozens to thousands. The city does have a line There is an IBC section exempting theater scenery from a permit, but electrical is always different.

The city has this line:
"No person may place, install, alter, change, add to, or cause or allow to be installed, altered, changed or added, any wires, apparatus or fixtures for the use of electricity in any building without first obtaining an electrical permit. A person must obtain a separate permit for each job."

​
Seems a bit over expansive to me. We can't plug in a computer, charge a phone or anything with thin exceptions of for building/home owners. :(
Click to expand...

So if I turn the lights on or off, have I "altered" them? :blink:
 
RickLight said:
I need a clear code reference that portable gear being placed or moved isn't 'electrical construction' and therefore shouldn't require a permit.


Here is the story from a friend who is a stagehand. An inspector recently claimed a permit is needed to set up theatrical lighting. The job was placing a few fixtures and plugging them into the permanently installed receptacles. He probably used some extension cords.



  • No local codes address the issue directly. It's all pretty straight NFPA70 from the state level on down.
  • This is not 'temporary' it is 'portable' and the time something is in place ranges from hours to years.
  • All luminaires and cords are portable equipment with NRTL listed plugs and connectors, properly powered from OCPDs.
  • The only tool used is a wrench for a mounting clamp and minor luminaire adjustments. No wires in screw terminals, bare copper is never seen unless something goes wrong. :weeping:
  • Theatrical dimmers and power distribution look a bit weird at first glance, but are NRTL listed and follow NEC in general and 520 specifically, of course. These are available both as permanently installed and portable versions. I'm only talking about the portable side. Large systems are typically powered using single conductors with 'cam-lok' style plugs and receptacles rated to 400A.
  • Best I can find from inside the theatrical side is that only NYC requires an electrician when a Broadway show is being installed. Knowledgeable folks believe its just for the permit fees. Broadway shows are huge projects with lots of money in play. We all know NYC likes their own rules.
  • Inspection is welcome any time of course. We routinely have Fire Chiefs/Marshals/Inspectors/etc on site counting crowds and such.

I believe this is not construction activity in any form and no permit is needed.

In my 40 years I've never heard of such a thing. If enforced this could apply to churches using stage lighting (nearly all), bars, event centers, hotel ballrooms and maybe outdoor festivals. Do you realize how many churches and bars are in even small cities? Can you imagine inspections early Sunday morning? One could take the extreme view and say that this would prevent charging your phone at Starbucks!
Click to expand...

I've been working in the Entertainment industry for almost 20 years, and this is the first time I've ever heard of a permit being required for hanging theatrical lights. You'd be laughed out of the Permits office anywhere I can think of if you tried to request a permit for a light hang at a theater. There is NO WAY this is considered construction. Do I need a permit to build the scenery onstage?

Without knowing anything about where your friend is, this sounds like a small town where the inspector is unformed, board, and trying to justify his existence by bringing in permitting fees. Is he the only inspector, or is he the junior lackey? Have your friend go over the guy's head, if he can. This inspector is an idiot.



SceneryDriver
 
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