Home Appliances Damage From Rain Lighting

[goodoboy]

Hello,

On Wednesday, during a rain lighting and thunder my TV, house alarm system, house phone, A/C unit and garage opener lost power.

The TV, alarm system, A/C thermostat and house phone was fried or damage, and no longer work. My A/C unit (furnace) power wires to the unit was badly burnt/damage, but the unit fuse opened to protect the unit from damage. The garage opener was protect from power panel breaker.

All other loads in the house remain energized. I have to purchase new TV, phone, and alarm system from this issue. I am now buying individual surge protector for each wall outlet to protect for future surges.

Here is the gotcha. I have a http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/SYC-T2 Series.pdf here is the installation at the panel to a 20amp fuse. http://prntscr.com/at49wl. This device should have protected the against voltage or current spikes. But looks like the green light is still on. I believe the unit is not working as it did not protect.

This same issue happened 5 months ago during another lighting, but all mentioned above appliances did not get fried or damage. I reset the breaker and it all worked fine.

I called American Homeshield and they sent an electrician to inspect what happen and he concludes the problem is with the underground service feeders from the electrical company transformer. He states the problem is the feeder conductors could be bad when lightening occur. I call the electrical company to inspect their box where the feeder conductors come from their transformer box and electrical company electrician states everything looks good.

I call another electrician for second opinion and he states he is 80% sure the feeder cables have an issue and recommends replacing the feeder cables. I tell him can you please at least megger the cables first to confirm the cables have an issue. He states, a megger will cost $1900. I tell him, I believe the problem is not with the cables but with the home surge protector not protecting the house appliances as it should.

So now I am calling the electrician who installed the home surge protector and the manufacture to let them know their device is not protecting appliances.

Lighting and thunder storms will occur, and not much I can do to protect against that, but I expect the surge protector to work. 2 times it did not work.

What do you think the problem may be?

Thank you, any comments are welcome.

 

[Sierrasparky]

1900 bucks for a megger test.
Send me a plane ticket. I'll do it!

The surge protector if protected once before is probably fried too.

 

[goodoboy]

1900 bucks for a megger test.
Send me a plane ticket. I'll do it!

The surge protector if protected once before is probably fried too.

Thanks Sierrasparky, That was funny. Yes, that what he wants to charge me

The surge protector is showing a green light, I am assuming if the protector was damaged, the light would be off or red.

Thank you,

 

[mgookin]

The surge protector should have been installed at the top (that is a top mounted main, right?)

You have it at the bottom which means the surge got there last and to all your stuff first.

You took a line side hit, for sure. When those MOV's take a hit, they are less effective on the next hit, and less thereafter until they are ineffective.

Take them up on the connected equipment warranty.

 

[JFletcher]

If you have coax feeding the house, you want to surge protect that as well.

 

[drcampbell]

The fried power wires to the a/c confirm that your house took a line-side hit, but the surge protector didn't necessarily fail to do its job; it's also possible that some of the lightning's energy was electromagnetically coupled into the wiring, including the low-voltage wires interconnecting the damaged gadgets.

Low-voltage metal-oxide varistors (MOVs) are available for protecting low-voltage circuits:
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...s/littelfuse_varistor_aumov_datasheet.pdf.pdf

As are bigger MOVs for bigger hazards:
http://www.littelfuse.com/products/varistors/industrial-high-energy.aspx

Not only does the surge protector need to be connected to the top breaker, it needs to be physically located up there as well, to keep the wiring absolutely as short as possible. Given the size of the surge that your house apparently took, I recommend replacing the surge protector, not just moving it.
http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/Installation T2 1-Phase.pdf

Don't mention where the surge protector was installed when applying for connected-equipment coverage.

 

[goodoboy]

The surge protector should have been installed at the top (that is a top mounted main, right?)

You have it at the bottom which means the surge got there last and to all your stuff first.

You took a line side hit, for sure. When those MOV's take a hit, they are less effective on the next hit, and less thereafter until they are ineffective.

Take them up on the connected equipment warranty.

Thank you mgookin,

Here is layout of the panel http://prntscr.com/at6yrf Yes, The main power feeder circuit breaker is up top.

I am a a bit confused cause I am not as knowledgeable about how things should be installed, yet I want to make sure its done right.

So, the surge protector should not be installed on the bottom?? It needs to be installed above the top circuit breaker? http://prntscr.com/at7397

What is MOV?

Thanks for the help

 

[ActionDave]

What is MOV?

metal-oxide varistor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor

 

[goodoboy]

Thanks for responding. I am shocked and frustrated that 3 electricians I hire did not tell me that the cause of this was the surge protector was installed in wrong place. I just don't understand and confused now. Why would the first electrician install the surge protector in the wrong place.

The fried power wires to the a/c confirm that your house took a line-side hit

What does line side hit mean?

Low-voltage metal-oxide varistors (MOVs) are available for protecting low-voltage circuits:
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...s/littelfuse_varistor_aumov_datasheet.pdf.pdf

Do I need to request electrican to install this? Where do they installed?

Not only does the surge protector need to be connected to the top breaker, it needs to be physically located up there as well, to keep the wiring absolutely as short as possible. Given the size of the surge that your house apparently took, I recommend replacing the surge protector, not just moving it.
http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/Installation T2 1-Phase.pdf

Which top breaker? There is already a top breaker up top. Should that breaker be removed and placed in bottom, then move the surge protector and its CB up top? The installation manual does not say install at top.
I will call the electrician who installed the surge protector and the surge manufacture.

Don't mention where the surge protector was installed when applying for connected-equipment coverage.

I am not understanding why the surge protector does not work if installed on the bottom. Does power start feeding the top loads up top first before reaching the surge protector?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't buy into the placement issue of the surge protector. Should work at either end.

 

[ActionDave]

I don't buy into the placement issue of the surge protector. Should work at either end.

I have heard the same thing. Surge protection is a mystical world though.

 

[user 100]

Thanks for responding. I am shocked and frustrated that 3 electricians I hire did not tell me that the cause of this was the surge protector was installed in wrong place. I just don't understand and confused now.



Do I need to request electrican to install this? Where do they installed?



Which top breaker? There is already a top breaker up top. Should that breaker be removed and placed in bottom, then move the surge protector and its CB up top? The installation manual does not say install at top.
I will call the electrician who installed the surge protector and the surge manufacture.



I am not understanding why the surge protector does not work if installed on the bottom. Does power start feeding the top loads up top first before reaching the surge protector?

As mgookin alluded to above you're wanting the sp brkr at or near the top of the bus (and w/ the sp leads as short and direct as possible) as the idea is to shunt the surge before it reaches all of the bc's underneath in order to avoid damage to all of the equipment fed by those bc's.

Whether it really makes any real difference with a bad enough hit, idk- sounds good in theory, I guess.:roll:

Unfortunately, despite this type of equipment being available nowadays and even if it's installed exactly as recommended there's still not much we can do sometimes to effectively and cheaply mitigate the damage from the tremendous energy from a nearby lightening strike.

And yes, it is recommended that an electrician install one of these.

 

[GerryB]

I have seen them double tapped off the mains. I also heard or read one about installing at the top of the panel. You wouldn't think it would make much difference if the lightning goes the same as the speed of light, 186,000 mi/sec. Or is our electricity a little slower than that I forget. There is one POCO around here that installs surge protection in the meters, of course they charge you an extra monthly fee but I guess they take responsibilty or they wouldn't do it.

 

[mgookin]

Surge protection devices (SPD's) will never mitigate 100% risk/ damage. Let's think of it as they make an earnest effort to mitigate some and hopefully most damage. How much damage would you have had with no SPD installed? We'll never know.

A SPD has ratings for clamping voltage, amperage vs. time, performance decay from successive hits, etc. That SPD you have is now toast. I would not count on it to ever perform again. It may have taken a hit before and that may have caused less than optimal performance on your recent hit.

Ultimately you'd want your "whole house" SPD at the meter but that's not so simple and you're not going to make that happen with a $40 SPD like you have. Next best thing is as close to the main breaker as you can get. You want to clamp that energy before it gets to your expensive things. Think of it like this - surge comes in at point A and my $20k sound system is at point D. Where do I want to clamp the voltage? At point B or at point F? I want to clamp it at point B before it gets to my expensive sound system at point D.

For protection of individual appliances, you'll want those SPD's as close to the appliance as possible.

There's some good, plain English information online. For more information visit www.nemasurge.org

 

[drcampbell]

.... Or is our electricity a little slower than that ...

Actually, yes. The speed of electric signals in conductors is less than the speed of light, and wire & cable are sometimes characterized with a "velocity factor", typically between 0.5 and 0.9, which is the ratio of the speed of electricity in the cable to the speed of light in a vacuum. (the speed of light also slows down when passing through other materials such as glass or water)

The reason for installing a whole-house surge protector as far upstream as possible is voltage drop, not speed. When a high voltage surge arrives via the service entrance, there's a corresponding high current surge. The high current causes a voltage drop in the conductors between the source of the surge and the surge protector and every device upstream of the surge protector is exposed to a higher voltage than the surge protector's clamping voltage. The further upstream, the higher the voltage.

 

[goodoboy]

Thank you all for the response.

Although, its tense moment for me because right now, I believe my major appliances (A/C and Furnace) is not protected.

So here is my action plan to reduce weather high voltage or current spikes from damaging my home appliance again:

Please comment or add to my plan if needed

1. Ask my electricity provider to install surge protector upstream or downstream of their meter
2. Call the electrician who installed whole home surge protector (SP) at the panel and inquire about why SP is not currently not protecting and request an inspection of SP and SP installation. I will tell/ask electrician why the SP is not installed in the CB nearest the main CB. I am very curious why they installed it at the bottom. Also, the SP light indicator is green which means, its working and not damaged. I will tell him to install SP at the top
3. Call the SP manufacturer and request payment for damaged equipment the SP did not protect.
4. Buy Belkin surge protectors for all appliances in the house and put in the wall outlet. I currently have some SP for appliances but missing a few.
5. Consider hiring electrician to install SP at furnace and A/C unit as extra protection. This cost is about $175 per unit (including SP and installation). If I get positive feedback from step 1 and 2, I might not do this part. Also, if 1 and 2 doesn't cost me much money. lol

I think SP by the meter, new SP and proper installation of SP at the panel, and Belkin surge protectors in the house at each appliances should be enough to mitigate this damage again. I hope so. Please let me know if you agree or not.

Thanks,

 

[user 100]

Thank you all for the response.

Although, its tense moment for me because right now, I believe my major appliances (A/C and Furnace) is not protected.

So here is my action plan to reduce weather high voltage or current spikes from damaging my home appliance again:

Please comment or add to my plan if needed

1. Ask my electricity provider to install surge protector upstream or downstream of their meter
2. Call the electrician who installed whole home surge protector (SP) at the panel and inquire about why SP is not currently not protecting and request an inspection of SP and SP installation. I will tell/ask electrician why the SP is not installed in the CB nearest the main CB. I am very curious why they installed it at the bottom. Also, the SP light indicator is green which means, its working and not damaged. I will tell him to install SP at the top
3. Call the SP manufacturer and request payment for damaged equipment the SP did not protect.
4. Buy Belkin surge protectors for all appliances in the house and put in the wall outlet. I currently have some SP for appliances but missing a few.
5. Consider hiring electrician to install SP at furnace and A/C unit as extra protection. This cost is about $175 per unit (including SP and installation). If I get positive feedback from step 1 and 2, I might not do this part. Also, if 1 and 2 doesn't cost me much money. lol

I think SP by the meter, new SP and proper installation of SP at the panel, and Belkin surge protectors in the house at each appliances should be enough to mitigate this damage again. I hope so. Please let me know if you agree or not.

Thanks,

This is going to boil down to how much $$$ you're willing to spend:

#1- you will need to contact your provider on this-some may do this, others won't install anything- rather you pick a protection plan and pay a monthly fee (depending on how much protection you want) tacked onto your bill and repairs are handled by a third party- it is solely up to you to have surge equipment installed- it's your property.

#2- is probably a non starter- if you come across as blaming his installation of the sp ptktr for the damage you'll probably just end up arguing w/ the ec about his liability- was there a contract/warranty? Get someone else to simply replace and/or move the unit to your liking.

#3-Again, was there any kind of warranty and manufacturer might say not responsible due to improper installation.

#4- Sounds reasonable and cheap and #5 is up to you- do you feel it's really necessary?

 

[mgookin]

Thank you all for the response.

Although, its tense moment for me because right now, I believe my major appliances (A/C and Furnace) is not protected.

So here is my action plan to reduce weather high voltage or current spikes from damaging my home appliance again:

Please comment or add to my plan if needed

1. Ask my electricity provider to install surge protector upstream or downstream of their meter
2. Call the electrician who installed whole home surge protector (SP) at the panel and inquire about why SP is not currently not protecting and request an inspection of SP and SP installation. I will tell/ask electrician why the SP is not installed in the CB nearest the main CB. I am very curious why they installed it at the bottom. Also, the SP light indicator is green which means, its working and not damaged. I will tell him to install SP at the top
3. Call the SP manufacturer and request payment for damaged equipment the SP did not protect.
4. Buy Belkin surge protectors for all appliances in the house and put in the wall outlet. I currently have some SP for appliances but missing a few.
5. Consider hiring electrician to install SP at furnace and A/C unit as extra protection. This cost is about $175 per unit (including SP and installation). If I get positive feedback from step 1 and 2, I might not do this part. Also, if 1 and 2 doesn't cost me much money. lol

I think SP by the meter, new SP and proper installation of SP at the panel, and Belkin surge protectors in the house at each appliances should be enough to mitigate this damage again. I hope so. Please let me know if you agree or not.

Thanks,

Ask yourself these questions:
How much have you spent mitigating surge?
How much have you lost which will not be covered by the "connected appliance warranty"?
How critical is it that you not have future losses? Losing a refrigerator is an inconvenience. Losing a refrigerator which preserves irreplaceable life-dependent medication is priceless.
If you can install another $40 SPD in your panel and have all future losses covered, that may be most equitable.
Don't spend $4,000 to save $80.

 

[goodoboy]

Ask yourself these questions:
How much have you spent mitigating surge?
How much have you lost which will not be covered by the "connected appliance warranty"?
How critical is it that you not have future losses? Losing a refrigerator is an inconvenience. Losing a refrigerator which preserves irreplaceable life-dependent medication is priceless.
If you can install another $40 SPD in your panel and have all future losses covered, that may be most equitable.
Don't spend $4,000 to save $80.

Thanks mgookin

I have spent about $400 on mitigating surge including for the existing SP that may not be working. This was spent 3 years ago

I have spent $200 on hiring electricians to inspect the issues. Neither 3 of the electricians identified the SP as the root cause. this was spent this past week.

I just spent $150 on home appliances surge protectors for sensitive devices in the home at Amazon. This was spent today and will provide extra protection, sort of a insurance.

I will get the SP outside fixed this week, which should be a free cost of inspection and replacement.

Never the less, I don't care the cost. I care the home protection. So I will get SP at the meter as well. The way I see it, its the cost of home ownership. Better safe then sorry.

 

[mgookin]

Thanks mgookin

I have spent about $400 on mitigating surge including for the existing SP that may not be working. This was spent 3 years ago

I have spent $200 on hiring electricians to inspect the issues. Neither 3 of the electricians identified the SP as the root cause. this was spent this past week.

I just spent $150 on home appliances surge protectors for sensitive devices in the home at Amazon. This was spent today and will provide extra protection, sort of a insurance.

I will get the SP outside fixed this week, which should be a free cost of inspection and replacement.

Never the less, I don't care the cost. I care the home protection. So I will get SP at the meter as well. The way I see it, its the cost of home ownership. Better safe then sorry.

I'm glad you're making informed decisions; they're the best ones.