GFCI breakers for swimming pools

[earlybird]

So we use A LOT of variable speed pumps for our clients. Primarily Hayward VSP3400. We constantly have GFCI breakers for either the pump, or the low voltage (14v) transformer tripping. The pump manufacturer has admitted they tend to have this issue recently and are working on a fix for it. They claim that when the motor ramps up/down, it's "dirty" and has a lot of line noise causing the breaker to trip. Also, as the lights are changing colors, they turn off/on repeatedly until the proper color or light show is reached. There doesn't seem to be a common denominator. Sometimes the pump breaker will trip (often when the motor isn't even running), and sometimes the light breaker. Both breakers are Class A.
I suppose this is actually two questions:
1. Is there anything I can do to prevent this? I've tried separating the breakers, running the lights through the load side of a GFCI receptacle, but cannot get a hold on the issue.
2. Can I use a Class B or C breaker for the pumps? The motors are double insulated and 230v (class C). This is where the NEC is a little tricky.

Any help or advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

[iwire]

There is nothing you can, or should do to make a GFCI work with a faulty appliance, pump, transformer etc. Haywood knows there is a problem.

No, you cannot use class B GFCIs if you could even get them.

 

[Little Bill]

Heard of one person that had trouble with Hayward pumps. (I don't like them at all!)
The GFCI kept tripping. They ended up changing to a Siemens GFCI and it stopped tripping. Don't ask me why as I don't know.:happyno:

 

[brantmacga]

Use Homeline GFI's for pool panels and never had one trip on a variable speed pump; but we've only connected them to Pentair pumps.

The last pool contractor I had using Hayward switched to Pentair 5 years ago. They all tell me its junk.

Also, if the GFI's are tripping on the lights, I would discuss with the pool contractor about switching to a LV LED fixture, and not 120v to the shell. Its safer anyway. I've had zero of the problems you are indicating here though and have done probably 400 pool installs over the last 10 years. What brand GFI are you using? And what brand is the pool fixture?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Heard of one person that had trouble with Hayward pumps. (I don't like them at all!)
The GFCI kept tripping. They ended up changing to a Siemens GFCI and it stopped tripping. Don't ask me why as I don't know.:happyno:

I remember that thread -- here it is http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=174391&highlight=hayward+pump

Interesting because I have used GE GFCI on pool pumps for a long time and never had an issue. Hayward is nuts-- I guess I never had a hayward pump for the pool

If you have a panel that can accept a seimens then that may be the best option but not really compliant.

Another option if you are not under the 2014 code is to put a dp 25 amp breaker in and it would ot be required to be gfci protected. IMO, this is a bad option but compliant. I would seriously make the pool company change the pump-- it is clearly their problem and Hayward admits it

 

[JFletcher]

400 pool installs over the last 10 years.

hmy: wow

 

[kwired]

If it is on a VFD is it a three phase motor? I don't think GFCI protection would be required on a three phase pump motor, and a GFCI on the supply circuit wouldn't detect a ground fault on the output side of the drive anyway.

 

[ActionDave]

If it is on a VFD is it a three phase motor? ....

Some single phase pool pump motors have electronic speed controls. I don't know how they work, I just know they are out there.

 

[iwire]

If it is on a VFD is it a three phase motor? I don't think GFCI protection would be required on a three phase pump motor, and a GFCI on the supply circuit wouldn't detect a ground fault on the output side of the drive anyway.

GFCI is required for pool pump motors hardwired or cord and plug regardless of the VFD.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

GFCI is required for pool pump motors hardwired or cord and plug regardless of the VFD.

But not for 3 phase motors as kwired stated

 

[iwire]

But not for 3 phase motors as kwired stated

I will be surprised if the OP has three phase branch circuit supply the pool equipment.

 

[cpinetree]

Heard of one person that had trouble with Hayward pumps. (I don't like them at all!)
The GFCI kept tripping. They ended up changing to a Siemens GFCI and it stopped tripping. Don't ask me why as I don't know.:happyno:

Thats the best solution we could come up with, in fact I think Hayward is marketing a breaker that is a rebranded Siemens for use with their pumps.

Lights on Lowvoltage transformers do not require a GFCI, in fact the GFCI won't trip on a low voltage fault anyway.

 

[kwired]

I will be surprised if the OP has three phase branch circuit supply the pool equipment.

I have little experience with pool equipment and don't know what is common, but running a three phase motor from a single phase supply is very do-able if using a VFD.

A GFCI on the supply circuit will not detect a ground fault on the output of the VFD either so requiring one serves no purpose at the motor end.

 

[iwire]

but running a three phase motor from a single phase supply is very do-able if using a VFD.

Yep, and that single phase branch circuit supplying the VFD would have to be GFCI protected.

A GFCI on the supply circuit will not detect a ground fault on the output of the VFD either so requiring one serves no purpose at the motor end.

Yep.

I do not know of exception for VFDs.

 

[kwired]

Yep, and that single phase branch circuit supplying the VFD would have to be GFCI protected.



Yep.

I do not know of exception for VFDs.

My mistake, after reading again, if the branch circuit for the pump is 120 through 240 volts and single phase then it needs GFCI protection (2014 NEC). There was some change there but not sure what it said before. A GFCI will have little protection to offer to what is beyond the drive, so this is either not common, the CMP overlooked it, or they decided it can't hurt anything anyway.

 

[iwire]

A GFCI will have little protection to offer to what is beyond the drive, so this is either not common, the CMP overlooked it, or they decided it can't hurt anything anyway.

How about if the drive and the pump are the same unit?

I was surprised to see it that way when I looked it up.

 

[kwired]

How about if the drive and the pump are the same unit?

I was surprised to see it that way when I looked it up.

Like I said I have little experience with pool equipment and don't know what is common out there.

That unit looks like it probably is a PSC motor and a much simpler and not so isolated from the supply circuit, solid state controller is likely used. I'd almost bet they typically would be cord and plug connected which would also trigger the need for GFCI protection.

Also looks like something that would probably be more common on a portable pool then on a permanent pool.

 

[iwire]

That unit looks like it probably is a PSC motor and a much simpler and not so isolated from the supply circuit, solid state controller is likely used. I'd almost bet they typically would be cord and plug connected which would also trigger the need for GFCI protection.

Also looks like something that would probably be more common on a portable pool then on a permanent pool.

Hardwired or cord and plug connected requires a GFCI.

I think this is a high end unit for expensive pools, I do not think you will find one of these on a portable pool.

https://www.google.com/search?q=SP3400VSP&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=SP3400VSP&tbm=shop

 

[cpinetree]

In Florida variable speed or 2 speed pumps are required on pools with a pump larger than 3/4hp.

Link FL pump law: http://www.floridapoolpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Energy-Law-Code-QA.pdf

Link FL pump law, layman's version: http://www.wilesroad.com/floridapoolpumplaw.html

The 2 speed pumps we wire usually use a second time clock to meet the required running time at lower speeds. (very few of the pools in comparison to the variable speed units).

 

[DTLight]

Like I said I have little experience with pool equipment and don't know what is common out there.

That unit looks like it probably is a PSC motor and a much simpler and not so isolated from the supply circuit, solid state controller is likely used. I'd almost bet they typically would be cord and plug connected which would also trigger the need for GFCI protection.

Also looks like something that would probably be more common on a portable pool then on a permanent pool.

The two largest pool pump manufacturers are both using three phase pump motors driven with single phase inverters. I believe Hayward is using conventional three phase motors, and Pentair is using a permanent magnet three phase motor.

http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/IntelliFlo VS+SVRS.pdf Page 3 for Pentair's specs

Perhaps an input choke would help with the GFCI nuisance tripping...
http://www.invertekdrives.com/variable-speed-drives/options/options-details.aspx?typeID=8