Unmarked breakers

[michaelkingdom]

**I'm a home inspector.**

Today I inspected a 1964 villa. Original ITE service panel located at the exterior. The main breaker, AC and range were all unmarked (no amperage rating). The handle ties were held in place with grommets to keep them from being removed. Grommets are not visible in the pic.

If an electrician came across this condition, what would be the recommended course of action? Replace the breakers to verify suitable over current protection?

 

[Frank DuVal]

Many times the amperage is written on the side of the breaker. Could you see either the top side of the upper breaker or the lower side of the bottom breaker? Of course time has a habit of removing the writing!

Removing the breakers is not part of a home inspection, I realize.

 

[jumper]

You looking for something like this?

240.83 Marking.
(A) Durable and Visible.
Circuit breakers shall be marked
with their ampere rating in a manner that will be durable
and visible after installation. Such marking shall be permit-
ted to be made visible by removal of a trim or cover.

 

[michaelkingdom]

You looking for something like this?

240.83 Marking.
(A) Durable and Visible.
Circuit breakers shall be marked
with their ampere rating in a manner that will be durable
and visible after installation. Such marking shall be permit-
ted to be made visible by removal of a trim or cover.

Thanks but I don't quote code. Otherwise I would be held to commenting on code compliance of the entire structure. Which means nearly every house has 100s of issues.

I'm just asking about the risks associated with potentially using an improperly sized breaker if that was the case.

 

[mgookin]

It's fine the way it is.

 

[user 100]

Of course time has a habit of removing the writing!

This is probably true on the top breaker- alot of breakers and I believe ite is one, only painted instead of stamping/molding the amperage- no visible marking in amerage window. The tie on Breaker #2 doesn't have the amperage window and of course both are in possible violation of this
vvvvvvvvvv

You looking for something like this?

240.83 Marking.
(A) Durable and Visible.
Circuit breakers shall be marked
with their ampere rating in a manner that will be durable
and visible after installation. Such marking shall be permit-
ted to be made visible by removal of a trim or cover.

And lastly...

Thanks but I don't quote code. Otherwise I would be held to commenting on code compliance of the entire structure. Which means nearly every house has 100s of issues.

I'm just asking about the risks associated with potentially using an improperly sized breaker if that was the case.

The risk is a potential (but probably unlikely as there are no visible signs of overheating) fire hazard. Recommend that an electrician look at it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

My guess would be that it's been like that since the late 60's or early 70's, so I also wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Jraef]

It's true, many older breakers were only marked on the paper sticker on the side. The code requirement calling for clearly visible ratings marks likely came about after these were installed, so these would be "grandfathered".

If it were me, I would kill power, pull the breakers out and verify there are ratings shown somewhere. If they are kosher, I'd put them back in and button it up. If there are no markings anywhere, I would have to assume they were counterfeit breakers installed by a homeowner or unlicensed fix-it guy and recommend replacing them with new Siemens breakers (because they are listed to replace ITE).

 

[readydave8]

It's true, many older breakers were only marked on the paper sticker on the side. The code requirement calling for clearly visible ratings marks likely came about after these were installed, so these would be "grandfathered".

If it were me, I would kill power, pull the breakers out and verify there are ratings shown somewhere. If they are kosher, I'd put them back in and button it up. If there are no markings anywhere, I would have to assume they were counterfeit breakers installed by a homeowner or unlicensed fix-it guy and recommend replacing them with new Siemens breakers (because they are listed to replace ITE).

I'm not sure if new Siemens will fit that busbar, I have a panel like that at one of my rentals and seem to remember having trouble making breaker fit, hack saw may have been used.

 

[norcal]

I'm not sure if new Siemens will fit that busbar, I have a panel like that at one of my rentals and seem to remember having trouble making breaker fit, hack saw may have been used.

Those 1960's EQ loadcenters had a insert that served as a rejection devicehmy: on the bottom side of the rail where the breaker attaches that is removable but it's been a long time since I saw one so the details are fuzzy on how EZ it is.

Edit: Went out into the back 40 where a old panel was sitting, the rejection strip is screwed to the rail, either the interior has to be removed, or the screws drilled out after removing the breakers.

Here is a photo.

 

[bohdand]

Look on the side of the handle - I've seen it there on some breakers.

Bohdan

 

[readydave8]

Those 1960's EQ loadcenters had a insert that served as a rejection devicehmy: on the bottom side of the rail where the breaker attaches that is removable but it's been a long time since I saw one so the details are fuzzy on how EZ it is.

Edit: Went out into the back 40 where a old panel was sitting, the rejection strip is screwed to the rail, either the interior has to be removed, or the screws drilled out after removing the breakers.

Here is a photo.

Thank You!!

 

[growler]

The main breaker, AC and range were all unmarked (no amperage rating).

The main and the range may be the correct size but you can almost bet that the AC breaker will not be. Most homes have newer AC units (installed in the last 20 years ) and the older units were not as efficient and had higher current draw. That AC breaker was probably sized for the first AC condensor ever installed at the house and never changed.

 

[jumper]

The main and the range may be the correct size but you can almost bet that the AC breaker will not be. Most homes have newer AC units (installed in the last 20 years ) and the older units were not as efficient and had higher current draw. That AC breaker was probably sized for the first AC condensor ever installed at the house and never changed.

Old time experience and knowledge.:thumbsup:

 

[FionaZuppa]

is a home inspection a pass & fail thing, or are there recommendations too?

i would simply write a recommendation that breakers should be properly identified after installation and remain properly/easily identified, and as such the recommendation is to have an electrician verify if the breakers are properly sized for the wire size and circuit use, label them, or replace them (if possible). and mark it as a "provisional pass pending a qualified electrician review". <-- which btw may not be an accepted practice within the home inspector practices, etc.

but i do have to ask. if a home inspector cannot ascertain a pass or fail due to inspection limitations (like "will not remove breaker to verify"), what is the std procedure in these scenarios for the home inspector? isnt there some national home inspector association that has already addressed this?