2016 National Electrical Estimator Losing Me Jobs?

[Freshta]

Hey everyone,

Anybody here use the most current edition of the NEE handbook? If so, do you feel you are losing jobs because of it? I'm a small time contractor.(Myself and a helper). I've been using the handbook to quote jobs here recently and it seems like more and more potential customers are telling me that I'm too high on my quotes! I just recently quoted replacing a 3R breaker panel out on the side of a house for $807. I actually priced this job low compared to the NEE book. (NEE book listed around $950) Price included all materials, labor and permit and waiting around for the inspector to ensure everything passed so that the homeowner could get their power back on as quickly as possible. I figure all said and done between 4-6 hrs to get power back on once I start. The guy tells me he has someone else that would do the job for around $600. Just in panel and breakers alone, the cost was almost $400. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Tony

 

[Fulthrotl]

Hey everyone,

Anybody here use the most current edition of the NEE handbook? If so, do you feel you are losing jobs because of it? I'm a small time contractor.(Myself and a helper). I've been using the handbook to quote jobs here recently and it seems like more and more potential customers are telling me that I'm too high on my quotes! I just recently quoted replacing a 3R breaker panel out on the side of a house for $807. I actually priced this job low compared to the NEE book. (NEE book listed around $950) Price included all materials, labor and permit and waiting around for the inspector to ensure everything passed so that the homeowner could get their power back on as quickly as possible. I figure all said and done between 4-6 hrs to get power back on once I start. The guy tells me he has someone else that would do the job for around $600. Just in panel and breakers alone, the cost was almost $400. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Tony

nothing. do you want to pay a helper a days wages out of $200?
so, you end up with how much for your time and trouble?

suggest industrial work, if you are suited for it, and it's available
in your area. trunkslammers can't fit the threader and tri stand
in the back of the car so easily.

 

[brantmacga]

I don't think you're high at all. There's always someone willing to do it for less. In my experience, salesmanship plays a big part in residential service.

It's not just in your market though; I get my eyes beat out locally on large construction projects, but we can bid jobs 500 miles away and get them every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Freshta]

Another one

Another one

So here's another example. Homeowner wishes to replace every receptacle, switch, and cover in the house because the old ones were dingy. I go out and count devices and come home and figure cost using the handbook. The handbook shows installing a new outlet under UNOBSTRUCTED, CLEAN conditions for one person at a little over $10 per device. This house is lived in which means lots of furniture to be moved so common sense would say to charge even more. I quoted the entire job based on the number of devices at around $600. I didn't add anything for the fact that furniture was going to be in the way. Anyway, got an email today that thanked me for coming out and that they found someone to do it for $180. I called the homeowner and was told the next closest estimate to mine was around $400. $180?? Are you kidding me???

Sorry for the rant, just seems crazy how things are going.

Tony

 

[JFletcher]

So here's another example. Homeowner wishes to replace every receptacle, switch, and cover in the house because the old ones were dingy. I go out and count devices and come home and figure cost using the handbook. The handbook shows installing a new outlet under UNOBSTRUCTED, CLEAN conditions for one person at a little over $10 per device. This house is lived in which means lots of furniture to be moved so common sense would say to charge even more. I quoted the entire job based on the number of devices at around $600. I didn't add anything for the fact that furniture was going to be in the way. Anyway, got an email today that thanked me for coming out and that they found someone to do it for $180. I called the homeowner and was told the next closest estimate to mine was around $400. $180?? Are you kidding me???

Sorry for the rant, just seems crazy how things are going.

Tony

No problem, venting the spleen is good for you.

Im assuming 60 devices here for $600? That's labor only, right? Does the 10$/per price assume copper wire, grounds already made for switches, and zero box issues like being cocked, stripped, too far recessed, drywall gaps too big, etc?

No way Id do it for $180, even if furniture were gone. I could see 300-400 labor as 60 devices would take me 3-5 hours; could do it on a Saturday morning for some extra cash, but not if this job were competing with other, more profitable work.

One switch/ receptacle change out could run $150 if it were a stand alone service call and it were a LED dimmer or WR GFCI.

 

[Freshta]

Negative. It is $10 with labor and devices factored in. Added cost for gfci outlets was device cost plus $10 each to install. There were 4 of those.

 

[iwire]

Negative. It is $10 with labor and devices factored in.

That is crazy low in my opinion.

With stuff in the way you would be lucky to average six per hour or $60 per hour minus stock, overhead, etc.

 

[JFletcher]

Negative. It is $10 with labor and devices factored in. Added cost for gfci outlets was device cost plus $10 each to install. There were 4 of those.

Agree with iwire, way too low.

"The handbook shows installing a new outlet under UNOBSTRUCTED, CLEAN conditions for one person at a little over $10 per device."

Does the handbook consider removal of the old devices, securing/restoring power one circuit at a time (kinda hard to kill all 1p 15 and 20A breakers if the HO is there), cleanup, and what I mentioned above, the problematic boxes? Ive done such mass replacements, and there are always problems that will eat time. I bet

There is this estimator, which shows $200-$250 for changing one switch.

Your $600 isnt too high; your potential customer and the $180 guy are.

 

[cdslotz]

I agree that $180 is stupid low.....however, I had never heard of this publication so I Googled it.
It looks to me like flat rate, one-size-fits- all publication averaging the going rates all over the country (correct me if I'm wrong).
It also is an estimating source that cost only $70 or so.....and they have books to price plumbing, roofing, remodeling, etc..etc
I'm not saying that you have to spend a ton of money to insure the estimating system is a "good" one....but you did put your trust in that one,
and thought it was ok to start selling right out of the box.
I can spend zero dollars on a system and use a pencil, pad and calculator to price any job accurately.
It sounds like you did that to compare....the price you came up with is closer to the low guy, and that price is YOUR price that you are comfortable with.
I'm sure the low guy is too...the NEE price is just a number that you have no idea if it's good or not...right?

 

[Freshta]

I agree. I have a friend contractor who uses it and swears by it. By my estimates to include helping move furniture and crap out of the way (envision minor league hoarder haha) I will be lucky to change 4-5 per hr.

 

[cowboyjwc]

My guess would be, that no matter what the bid was that beat you out, it will be close to your price by the time they are through with, "oh I didn't figure that into the price".:happyyes:

 

[petersonra]

If you don't like the numbers it comes up with, feel free to change them to something else.

I will say that sometimes the numbers these estimating standards come up with seem quite high for certain things. Not a comment about this specific situation, but such estimating methods in general. On the whole though, they are not likely to underestimate the cost.

 

[growler]

Hey everyone,

Anybody here use the most current edition of the NEE handbook? If so, do you feel you are losing jobs because of it? I'm a small time contractor.(Myself and a helper). I've been using the handbook to quote jobs here recently and it seems like more and more potential customers are telling me that I'm too high on my quotes! I just recently quoted replacing a 3R breaker panel out on the side of a house for $807. I actually priced this job low compared to the NEE book. (NEE book listed around $950) Price included all materials, labor and permit and waiting around for the inspector to ensure everything passed so that the homeowner could get their power back on as quickly as possible. I figure all said and done between 4-6 hrs to get power back on once I start. The guy tells me he has someone else that would do the job for around $600. Just in panel and breakers alone, the cost was almost $400. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

Tony

Think of it his way. If you had priced the job at $700 and someone else is willing to do it for $600 then you still lose the work. If you get it you are still screwed.

If you price the job at $1200 and you get it then you at least make a little money.

I don't see how the book could give a price to include the permit because a permit in this area could cost between $50 and $200 just for the permit fee.

If the book gave a price of $950 for the job and then add on the cost of the permit to include labor ( time to obtain permit ) and fee then you will probably end up with $1100 to $1200 and that's still reasonable.

I don't really believe that $600 BS and I think the homeower was just checking to see if you are dumb enough to try and match his idea of what the job should cost or what he thinks he should pay.

 

[JFletcher]

I don't really believe that $600 BS and I think the homeower was just checking to see if you are dumb enough to try and match his idea of what the job should cost or what he thinks he should pay.

I recently had a licensed electrician give me a $600 price for replacing a 125A FPE panel with a new 125A panel. That number evaporated when I mentioned things like 'permit', 'AFCI breakers', and 'bring panel grounding up to current code'.

I suppose tho that if you had enough spare parts in inventory, you could do a job that cheap. At one point I had enough spare/extra v/d/v wire, keystones, hangers, boxes, etc I could have wired another entire hotel w/o ordering any substantial materials.

 

[James L]

Last time I used National Estimator was 2010 book to help me bid a restaurant. My boss at the time used a different computer estimator program to bid for comparison.

We were really amazed. I had it $128k and he had it at $131k

We didn't get the job. The winning bid was $58k. I had a hard time imagining it because my switch gear and fixture package came in at almost $30k and add wire and everything else?

Bottom line - those estimator programs aren't all that far off when calculating an average guy at average pay. They have to do it that way. If a guy decided to work for $25 per hour and bring his nephew for $8 per hour, you're never gonna get it. And you don't want to - especially if you have legitimate overhead.

As for those devices, I'm pretty quick. Unobstructed whole house I charge $8.00 per, and add $12 for gfci and change 20 per hour on most houses built in the last 40 years. Older houses, furniture, etc and I'll be easily $12-15 each

I also don't have any overhead to speak of. You should know what you need to bring in for certain stuff. Bid it for what you need and be patient. If you bid it right, your closing rate will be quite low.

1 sale out of every 5 or 6 bids is decent. Just remember that everyone who says yes has to pitch in and help pay for all the time you spent with everyone who says no.

But one sure fire way to sell every job is to do all your work for free.