pool heater tripping

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GerryB

Senior Member
Wired a Hayward pool heater, propane, trips every few hours. I thought I read something about Hayward pumps not long ago, but this is a heater. Wired with the same line that does the filter. Curious if anyone has had problems with these. I will be returning any running a dedicated circuit, although it is not supposed to need one.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Why do you have the heater on a gfci??

You are correct that the Hayward pumps have been an issue but I am not sure why a heater would be an issue. Sounds like something defective in the heater
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Why do you have the heater on a gfci??

You are correct that the Hayward pumps have been an issue but I am not sure why a heater would be an issue. Sounds like something defective in the heater
That's a good question. I'm going to call them again, although when I said it was tripping the GFI she didn't say you don't need one. Last year the pool guy said it needed to be GFI, so it must be from the manufacturer.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Why do you have the heater on a gfci??

You are correct that the Hayward pumps have been an issue but I am not sure why a heater would be an issue. Sounds like something defective in the heater
You are correct Dennis, no GFI required. I knew that in the back of my head but because of the job last year I thought it had to be. Of course now a new circuit is needed because everything out there is on a gfi breaker.
Thanks though.
 

mpoulton

Senior Member
Location
Phoenix, AZ, USA
If it trips a GFCI, it's leaking more than 5mA to ground. That's abnormal and unsafe. Removing the GFCI does not fix the problem, it covers it up. Just because it isn't required doesn't mean it's OK to just remove it when you know there's a ground fault tripping it. I would have to ask, though, how you know the heater is to blame if it is sharing the pump circuit. Motors develop ground faults much more easily than gas burner controls.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If it trips a GFCI, it's leaking more than 5mA to ground. That's abnormal and unsafe. Removing the GFCI does not fix the problem, it covers it up. Just because it isn't required doesn't mean it's OK to just remove it when you know there's a ground fault tripping it. I would have to ask, though, how you know the heater is to blame if it is sharing the pump circuit. Motors develop ground faults much more easily than gas burner controls.


I agree, there seems to be some leakage and now that you know there is an issue I would look into this but I did not realize it was connected to the pump...
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
It could be a manufacturers requirement but not an NEC req. What circuit is the heater connected to? If this is a gas heater then there will be little to no draw on the circuit. Is the gfci ahead of other equipment on the circuit or does it just control the pool heater?
 

GerryB

Senior Member
I don't think it is the heater, it tripped the first time I turned the breaker on and the heater was wired but not on. This is a 30+ year old pool. The circuit I tapped was a 20a GFI breaker run in ridgid conduit to the filter and also feeding a convenience outlet. I checked my wires, made sure the ground wasn't touching the neutral, turned it on, ok. It tripped again the first time I turned on the switch. I had installed an extension bell box cover, removed the duplex and put in a combo sw/duplex. I thought maybe I had miswired the device so I removed it, double checked everything, turned it on with the device hanging out of the box, ok. With the power on, switch off, I buttoned it up, turned on the switch and it was ok. The HO and I ran through the controls, I flipped it on and off a few times and that was it.
Also bonded the frame to a ground rod that was right there.
As I said the HO called this morning and said it ran for a few hours, tripped, could reset, etc. I had a similar problem with a heater last year only that one tripped every couple of weeks. (Both GE 20amp GFI"s?)
Possibly related he said he wanted me to check another time he thought he felt voltage on a box or something somewhere in the house. As of right now he disconnected the heater and the filter is running ok. He also told me they changed the gfi breaker last year, don't know why.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If you have voltage on the unit then something is definitely awry but it would seem like it should trip all the time. I would take the heater off the pump circuit and see what happens but I would definitely want to see where the tingle is coming from.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
After talking with another member who was chatting with the op I see that the pump is a 1 1/2 HP motor. He says nameplate is 12 amps so did you put a amp meter on it?

I believe you could have the pump on a dp 30 gfci but then the other items on the circuit would have to be removed.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
After talking with another member who was chatting with the op I see that the pump is a 1 1/2 HP motor. He says nameplate is 12 amps so did you put a amp meter on it?

I believe you could have the pump on a dp 30 gfci but then the other items on the circuit would have to be removed.

Ignore my last post apparently it was a different thread or something like that...:D
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Code (NEC) and local electric codes. The NEC contains no standards requiring Ground-Fault Interruptionprotection (via GFI Circuit Breaker or otherwise) of “Fixed” or “Stationary” equipment, underarticle 680: Swimming Pools, Fountains, & Similar Installations.
Found this in there specs. Will be going there Fri. to figure it out. I see it has a combustion fan. (no pump:))
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
One heater that was do the same thing , I checked everything in that all connections , transformer , and the problem ended up one being one of the limit switches was never hooked up. I took the side panel off and there are limits for temperature. One was not hooked up.
 
Code (NEC) and local electric codes. The NEC contains no standards requiring Ground-Fault Interruptionprotection (via GFI Circuit Breaker or otherwise) of “Fixed” or “Stationary” equipment, underarticle 680: Swimming Pools, Fountains, & Similar Installations.)

Maybe so !
But there clearly is a problem
it should be fixed
not just masked

Legal liability being what it is
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Maybe so !
But there clearly is a problem
it should be fixed
not just masked

Legal liability being what it is
I don't know and don't think there actually is a problem. The second time I spoke with tech support she said if you take it off the GFI that will fix that. Years ago I did a lot of hot tubs for a builder. There was a problem with them (don't recall what brand) tripping the 50 amp GFI. It had something to do with the ozonator. In that case you have to have the GFI. The "fix" was to install Siemons GFI breakers. They supplied the box and the breaker, for some reason GE and some other brands didn't hold.
 
Location
NC/SC
I don't know and don't think there actually is a problem. The second time I spoke with tech support she said if you take it off the GFI that will fix that. Years ago I did a lot of hot tubs for a builder. There was a problem with them (don't recall what brand) tripping the 50 amp GFI. It had something to do with the ozonator. In that case you have to have the GFI. The "fix" was to install Siemons GFI breakers. They supplied the box and the breaker, for some reason GE and some other brands didn't hold.
I have worked a bit on hot tubs and pools including Hayward equipment,
On hot tubs there is usually a check valve on the ozone generator gas output tube to the ozone jet. If the check valve fails, usually due to freeze damage, the spa water can back up and soak the ozone generator bulb. You may not see the water in there but it will cause a ground fault to the ozone generator casing. I've seen this repeatedly. Some hot tubs, have a supplied sub panel with multiple 2P gfci's in the sub panel. Watch your neutrals, you only have one place to connect neutral in the control box. You only need one. Lots of guys think it's the wrong panel because you only run neutral into one of the gfci breakers.



On the heater ground fault I would start with the circuit, is it possible there could be 2 gfci's in the circuit? This can cause nuisance tripping.

Make sure you don't have a paralleled neutral pig tail. Neutral must run through multiple gfci's if you pigtail them the gfci will trip when energized.

Isolate the circuit and check continuity to ground. Be sure to isolate all current carrying conductors including neutral. Check continuity to ground. Then do the same with your appliances. Pump and heater.

Look for water in the heater supply air fan motor, look for leaks at the pressure switch. I always approach these conditions using process of elimination.

Its rare but you must make sure that you don't have a 2nd bonding jumper any where in your system for the entire home (sub panels). Be sure your pool bonding grid is not landed in a sub panel or shares an auxillary GEC. I have seen current flowing through the pool equipment ground from an intermittent 120v load with a path to the pool bonding grid. The pool bonding grid was landed in the sub panel (which it shouldn't be) and the bonding jumper was installed (again it shouldn't be) This created a small potential to ground from the other loads neutral through the Bonding grid and ground.

Remember, your pool appliance casings are grounded and bonded. The equipment ground can develop potential to neutral, by leakage from a different neutral to the bonding grid especially if the system bonding jumper is far from the inadvertent secondary bonding jumper connecting, the ground, neutral, and the pool bonding grid.

Hopefully its something simple and it will make you slap your head.
 
Location
NC/SC
Correction, instead of potential use current. Its a difference in current because of multiple pathways to ground and a bonded, paralleled or shared neutral. Pushed the send button before I reread it.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Why do you have the heater on a gfci??

You are correct that the Hayward pumps have been an issue but I am not sure why a heater would be an issue. Sounds like something defective in the heater

That's a good question. I'm going to call them again, although when I said it was tripping the GFI she didn't say you don't need one. Last year the pool guy said it needed to be GFI, so it must be from the manufacturer.

I'm not sure that can be said unless you know how deep the conduit is buried , table 300.5
 
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