Wadsworth panel 2 pullouts, 8 edison fuses, residence

[newservice]

Is there a justification for declaring this panel in violation if the AHJ requires a 100a service? Panel itself seems to be a 100a enclosure, based on reading other posts.
SE conductors are copper at least a #2, so, no issue there. Obviously, all the (single pole) branches are under the 60a breaker, and the other pullout serves the range. Would you call this a 60 or 100a service?

 

[GoldDigger]

It could be a 100A service with two disconnecting means instead of just one. Up to six are allowed.
But the size of the service is whatever POCO says it is. Do they bill for a 100A service?
It could also be a 60A service with disconnects that add up to more than the service size. That too is allowed.

 

[newservice]

Any other takers?

 

[iwire]

Any other takers?

Well you have not provided much info about why the AHJ is involved with an existing installation but I will point out that under todays codes the home would have to have a 100 amp service disconnecting means at the least.

Your panel does not have this.

230.79 Rating of Service Disconnecting Means. The service
disconnecting means shall have a rating not less than
the calculated load to be carried, determined in accordance
with Part III, IV, or V of Article 220, as applicable. In no
case shall the rating be lower than specified in 230.79(A),
(B), (C), or (D).


(C) One-Family Dwellings. For a one-family dwelling,
the service disconnecting means shall have a rating of not
less than 100 amperes, 3-wire.

There is no provision in this section to add up multiple service disconnects to reach 100 amps.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Is there a justification for declaring this panel in violation if the AHJ requires a 100a service? Panel itself seems to be a 100a enclosure, based on reading other posts.
SE conductors are copper at least a #2, so, no issue there. Obviously, all the (single pole) branches are under the 60a breaker, and the other pullout serves the range. Would you call this a 60 or 100a service?

If the fuse box labeling still exists, there should be a diagram of the fuse box bus routing. If there is no diagram, pull the 60 Amp fuse block labeled MAIN and test the load side of the remaining fuse block (with good fuses installed) for voltage. If the load side of the RANGE fuse block is still energized, with the MAIN fuse block removed, the fuse panel is going to have a "let-through" of 120 Amps.

You have to determine this. I can't answer your question with the information you've given.

As for the service conductors, ARE they #2, what is the rating of the insulation (R, RH, RHW, etc.), and under which version of the Code was the service assembled? That edition of the Code will tell you the Ampacity of the conductors, when (I assume) used in a 240 / 120 Volt single phase residential dwelling service.

You have to determine this to the best extent that you can.

In my neck of the woods, the power company's records are next to meaningless.

 

[iwire]

In my neck of the woods, the power company's records are next to meaningless.

I could waste days just trying to find the right person to tell me they do not know.

 

[gadfly56]

Is there a justification for declaring this panel in violation if the AHJ requires a 100a service? Panel itself seems to be a 100a enclosure, based on reading other posts.
SE conductors are copper at least a #2, so, no issue there. Obviously, all the (single pole) branches are under the 60a breaker, and the other pullout serves the range. Would you call this a 60 or 100a service?

Unless there was a major renovation, here in NJ he couldn't do that. In fact, up near the front of the NEC it states it is not intended to be retroactive.

 

[newservice]

Ok so its a home buyer having me follow up on a home inspectors report, requesting a quote on an upgrade. Conductors are #2 copper, R insulation if I had to guess, in 1.5" pipe maybe galvanized, leading into a large junction/tap box and then over to the meter mounted on top the panel. Evidence of water in the tap box. Problem is, its underground service, with the meter inside, so change the panel means do the whole service. Multiple reasons I could say it needs it but I am looking at something the city has called the property conservation code, which says the minimum service size shall be computed according to standards and practices of the NEC. Clearly that would be 100 by any measure today. So, what size is it? Does it go by the entrance conductor sizes, or the panel, and is this so old of a question that nobody really knows or cares anymore? To me, the max current available to either the branches or the range side, is 60 amps...If I could say it's a 60 amp service, I could point to the property conservation code as another justification.

 

[iwire]

So, what size is it? Does it go by the entrance conductor sizes, or the panel,

In general it will be by the lowest rated point in the circuit. Could be the conductors, the meter socket, the service disconnect(s) etc.

 

[newservice]

In general it will be by the lowest rated point in the circuit. Could be the conductors, the meter socket, the service disconnect(s) etc.

That sounds right, so I think I would call it a 60 amp service. Thanks!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ok so its a home buyer having me follow up on a home inspectors report, requesting a quote on an upgrade.

OK. So the home inspector is providing the "fearful opinion". Your job, in my opinion, is to be true to the Code.

Conductors are #2 copper, R insulation if I had to guess,

Don't "guess". Figure it out. Go back to the house.

in 1.5" pipe maybe galvanized, leading into a large junction/tap box and then over to the meter mounted on top the panel. Evidence of water in the tap box. Multiple reasons I could say it needs it but

I am looking at something the city has called the property conservation code, which says the minimum service size shall be computed according to standards and practices of the NEC.

Here you are. Your jurisdiction is instructing you to do a load calculation for an existing dwelling in order to determine the required service capacity to supply that load. Chapter 220. In my experience, part of assessing and existing installation requires learning about the existing loads supplied by this service. Many times there is no issue, but if it is close, then an exact list of nameplate values must be made along with calculating the square footage based General Lighting Load, and Chapter 220 applied.

Clearly that would be 100 by any measure today.

This is "clear" only for new construction. You are talking about an existing dwelling. So far, from this side of my computer screen, I can't give you an answer about the Wadsworth assembly you have looked at, for lack of information. Only you, or the Wadsworth panel itself, can supply that information. Asking us. . . ? . . . well, we COULD make up just about anything . . . Sounds like you need to go back to the house and get more information.

So, what size is it? Does it go by the entrance conductor sizes, or the panel, and is this so old of a question that nobody really knows or cares anymore? To me, the max current available to either the branches or the range side, is 60 amps...If I could say it's a 60 amp service, I could point to the property conservation code as another justification.

It's clear to me that you need to go back and learn more about the Wadsworth assembly and the conductor gauge and insulation type.

Problem is, its underground service, with the meter inside, so change the panel means do the whole service.

The correctness of this statement is determined by your local power company regulations, which I don't know.

 

[readydave8]

Do they bill for a 100A service?

Is California different? Around here I don't think POCO rates (for dwellings) are affected by service size.