Restrictions on Circuits in stairways and elevator rooms

[mkgrady]

I need to run conduits from the top floor of a building to the roof. It appears the only ways to run the conduits are up through an elevator room or a stairway to the roof. An electrician told me conduits can not run in either space. Is this true? What would be the reasons?

On the stairway to the roof the conduit would go from the ceiling of the top floor and up to the roof of the stairway shaft. In the elevator room the conduit would be above a hung ceiling. Is above a ceiling in an elevator room prohibited? If I can run through either space I don't know if the job can be done.

 

[iwire]

For elevator shafts and machine rooms we do not have look further then the NEC.

620.37 Wiring in Hoistways, Machine Rooms, Control
Rooms, Machinery Spaces, and Control Spaces.
(A) Uses Permitted. Only such electrical wiring, raceways,
and cables used directly in connection with the elevator or
dumbwaiter, including wiring for signals, for communication
with the car, for lighting, heating, air conditioning, and ventilating
the elevator car, for fire detecting systems, for pit sump
pumps, and for heating, lighting, and ventilating the hoistway,
shall be permitted inside the hoistway, machine rooms, control
rooms, machinery spaces, and control spaces.

As far as the stairway I believe it is in the building code that prevents us from using an egress stair for things unrelated to the stairs.

Are there stacked up bathrooms? Can you follow the plumbing up?

 

[JFletcher]

I need to run conduits from the top floor of a building to the roof. It appears the only ways to run the conduits are up through an elevator room or a stairway to the roof. An electrician told me conduits can not run in either space. Is this true? What would be the reasons?

On the stairway to the roof the conduit would go from the ceiling of the top floor and up to the roof of the stairway shaft. In the elevator room the conduit would be above a hung ceiling. Is above a ceiling in an elevator room prohibited? If I can run through either space I don't know if the job can be done.

Back in 2007 when we did a 44 room addition onto an existing hotel, one of the things we (doing v/d/v) and the EC were gigged on was running cable/conduit in the wall of the room that had the stairwell on the other side. We had to go surface mount. I do not know what code was cited, but if I had to take a wag it would be what iwire wrote (electrical unassociated with stairwell lighting) or the stairwells require a 4 hour rating or are an AORA (area of rescue assistance).

Found this re: a time clock install in a stairwell:

Q: Is it permitted to have a time clock in an exit stairwell of a hospital? My VP of Operations wants to install time recording stations in stairwells where employees will have to record their time. Our hospital is over 30 years old and is fully sprinklered.

A: Section 19.2.1 of the Life Safety Code (LSC) 2000 edition refers to Chapter 7 for means of egress requirements. Section 7.1.3.2.1(e) prohibits penetrations and opening into an exit enclosure (stairwell) unless it serves the stairwell. The addition of new time clocks would not meet the definition of “serving the stairwell”.

Life Safety Code shoots down your stairwell for rooftop conduits. iwire cited the code that prohibits the elevator shaft.

Can you run the conduit outside of the building to the roof?

 

[mgookin]

Is it a highrise? (any occupiable level >74' above grade)

 

[mkgrady]

I'll have take another look at the conditions. I need to run conduits from the top (18th) floor to the roof. I think the only space above is the stairway to the roof hatch and a room above the three elevator shafts.

 

[mkgrady]

Is it a highrise? (any occupiable level >74' above grade)

Yes, it is an 18 story building plus a room above the three elevator shafts. The only other area is a stairway to thr roof hatch. Not sure that stairway is egress if it only goes to the roof and not down to the ground.

 

[mgookin]

Yes, it is an 18 story building plus a room above the three elevator shafts. The only other area is a stairway to thr roof hatch. Not sure that stairway is egress if it only goes to the roof and not down to the ground.

An elevator penthouse is not a story.

The roof access, if it shares the same atmosphere with the stairwell, is part of the stairwell. Conversely if you have to exit the stairwell to get to the roof access, they are separate areas.

Nothing can be in the stairwell which is not a requirement for egress. Emergency lighting, pressurization fans, etc. are all required for egress. So is area of refuge communications if it's in the stairwell.

I need to run conduits from the top floor of a building to the roof. It appears the only ways to run the conduits are up through an elevator room or a stairway to the roof. An electrician told me conduits can not run in either space. Is this true? What would be the reasons?

On the stairway to the roof the conduit would go from the ceiling of the top floor and up to the roof of the stairway shaft. In the elevator room the conduit would be above a hung ceiling. Is above a ceiling in an elevator room prohibited? If I can run through either space I don't know if the job can be done.

What's in the conduits?

One trick is to provide a fire rated barrier around the conduits maintaining the 2 hour rating of the stairwell. That way by definition they are separated from, and not within, the stairwell.

 

[dkidd]

One trick is to provide a fire rated barrier around the conduits maintaining the 2 hour rating of the stairwell. That way by definition they are separated from, and not within, the stairwell.

:thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

One trick is to provide a fire rated barrier around the conduits maintaining the 2 hour rating of the stairwell. That way by definition they are separated from, and not within, the stairwell.

If this was not planed for from the start it may very well interfere with the required dimensions.

For sure an option worth looking into while being aware there are minimum dimensions that must be maintained.

 

[mkgrady]

An elevator penthouse is not a story.

What's in the conduits?

One trick is to provide a fire rated barrier around the conduits maintaining the 2 hour rating of the stairwell. That way by definition they are separated from, and not within, the stairwell.

The conduit will contain a VFD output to a 15 HP fan on the roof. That is one of the three conduits I need. There are already three of the four conduits I need that are already above the elevator penthouse. Using the good ideas you guys have provided, I think I will have those three conduits boxed in with 2hr sheetrock on their way to the roof. I will also look into running up the stairway for the fourth conduit and boxing that in also.

 

[mkgrady]

If this was not planed for from the start it may very well interfere with the required dimensions.

For sure an option worth looking into while being aware there are minimum dimensions that must be maintained.

Thanks I'll try to find those dimensions. Building code I guess.

 

[mgookin]

Thanks I'll try to find those dimensions. Building code I guess.

The width of the stairs is a function of the number of people using the stairway. The dimensions of the landing are a function of the width of the stairs.
I suggest you consult the life safety consultant and/ or architect. They did the calculations. The last thing you want is an inspector with a tape measure failing the job at time of CO.

The conduit will contain a VFD output to a 15 HP fan on the roof. That is one of the three conduits I need. There are already three of the four conduits I need that are already above the elevator penthouse. Using the good ideas you guys have provided, I think I will have those three conduits boxed in with 2hr sheetrock on their way to the roof. I will also look into running up the stairway for the fourth conduit and boxing that in also.

Is that fan for stairwell pressurization? If so, you might be good to go without separation. That's a call by AHJ.

 

[mkgrady]

The width of the stairs is a function of the number of people using the stairway. The dimensions of the landing are a function of the width of the stairs.
I suggest you consult the life safety consultant and/ or architect. They did the calculations. The last thing you want is an inspector with a tape measure failing the job at time of CO.



Is that fan for stairwell pressurization? If so, you might be good to go without separation. That's a call by AHJ.

The fan is for a forced draft of boilers in the basement. A shaft goes from the basement to the roof but I can't get to the shaft without going through the elevator shaft or stairway.

This stairway only goes to the roof from the top usable floor. It does't go down. I'm wondering if egress to the roof is evan an issue.

 

[gadfly56]

The fan is for a forced draft of boilers in the basement. A shaft goes from the basement to the roof but I can't get to the shaft without going through the elevator shaft or stairway.

This stairway only goes to the roof from the top usable floor. It does't go down. I'm wondering if egress to the roof is evan an issue.

Well that puts a whole new spin on things. I doubt the roof is considered a egress way. You may be OK with this. Definitely worth a chat with the architect and AHJ.

 

[mgookin]

The fan is for a forced draft of boilers in the basement. A shaft goes from the basement to the roof but I can't get to the shaft without going through the elevator shaft or stairway.

This stairway only goes to the roof from the top usable floor. It does't go down. I'm wondering if egress to the roof is evan an issue.

Very good question. The building will have a fire rated assembly separating the uppermost occupiable floor and the roof but of a lesser rating than that of a floor/ ceiling rating, but rated nonetheless.

It sounds like you have a chase from the basement to the top floor but the chase does not extend to the roof?
And is the roof access is over the top of that chase?
So if you penetrate the floor in that roof access area you can get to the chase?
Am I thinking this accurately?

 

[mkgrady]

Very good question. The building will have a fire rated assembly separating the uppermost occupiable floor and the roof but of a lesser rating than that of a floor/ ceiling rating, but rated nonetheless.

It sounds like you have a chase from the basement to the top floor but the chase does not extend to the roof? It does
And is the roof access is over the top of that chase? No
So if you penetrate the floor in that roof access area you can get to the chase?
Am I thinking this accurately?

Picture a a small structure say 30' by 30'. It sits above the 18th floor. Within this cube is a 20 by 30 rectangle that comprises the elevator room and two small rectangles that form a stairway shaft and a pipe shaft. I need to run laterally from an electric room on 18th floor to this 30 by 30 area. So far I may have learned that I can't run up the stair shaft and I can't run through the elevator room but I also can't get to the pipe shaft without removing very large portions of hard ceiling on the 18th floor. I just can't make a $2,000 pipe run into a $52,000 pipe run.

I still wonder what I can't use the space above the elevator room dropped ceiling. I guess because the ceiling is not 2 hour rated

 

[mgookin]

I'd look at that stairwell. It's probably only one hour rated and that's only to separate the 18th floor from the roof. And it's very likely not pressurized. It is not a sacred highrise means of egress. It is roof access.

It's still egress for anyone on the roof, but that's different than the people sleeping on the floor below.

Ask your architect if you can run conduit through that stairwell and firestop it where it enters and leaves the stairwell. He very well may go along with you. Point out that it's not the egress for the building occupants, it's not a area of refuge and it's not pressurized. It's a utility area.

 

[mkgrady]

I'd look at that stairwell. It's probably only one hour rated and that's only to separate the 18th floor from the roof. And it's very likely not pressurized. It is not a sacred highrise means of egress. It is roof access.

It's still egress for anyone on the roof, but that's different than the people sleeping on the floor below.

Ask your architect if you can run conduit through that stairwell and firestop it where it enters and leaves the stairwell. He very well may go along with you. Point out that it's not the egress for the building occupants, it's not a area of refuge and it's not pressurized. It's a utility area.

That sounds good. Thanks a lot for the reply

 

[cyriousn]

MI cable might also help here, we see it done in NYC stairways all the time however it still isn't technically following code. AHJ's generally turn blind eye to it. MI isn't cheap but it might be able to be worked into a solution that an AHJ may agree to. Is there a local AHJ that would be willing to review this issue? Understanding that those types of meetings do have the possibility of other costly requests but better to hash it out now I guess.

 

[mgookin]

That sounds good. Thanks a lot for the reply

You're welcome. Let us know how it works out.