When you take the POCO's word

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goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
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Electrical Contractor
With the advent of the new "smart meters", POCO's are no longer sending out a representatives to check for power at a residence. One of my customers (visiting relatives in Michigan) called me and said one of his neighbors noticed a tree down on his property and that the power wires were bent down but not disconnected. He had the neighbor go into his house and noticed the power was not on. He called the POCO and they told him that the power WAS on. He then contacted me to go to the house and check. When I got there I noticed that all 12 AFCI breakers were tripped but the Main 200A breaker was still on. I tried to reset a couple of the AFCI's but they tripped immediately. I then pulled the panel cover off and metered the incoming power. All voltages were correct. Thinking that there must have been some sort of power surge when the tree hit the power line I thought that it may have blown the electronics in each of the AFCI breakers. So, I began temporarily replacing the AFCI's with std. breakers just to get the heat back on. Everything was going great until the smoke alarms went off. I immediately shut the main breaker and went to investigate. When I got to the HO's office I smelled burnt electronics. I then went back to the breaker panel, turned off all the breakers that I had on and then turned on the main. As I turned on one breaker at a time I metered the voltage output of each breaker and noticed that the voltage increased up to between 190 and 240 volts. I realized that it was a bad neutral problem and I shut doen the main breaker. When I went outside to inspect I saw the triplex properly connected at the house. However, looking at the mid-span connection I saw that the neutral had separated.

So, long story, short they say you have to pay for your education - and I did. Thus, lesson learned, "Don't take the POCO's word for it when they tell you that the power is on." Those smart meters are looking at the 240V phase conductors to the house and do not take the neutral into consideration at all. At this point I am not sure if I burnt the electronics or if the AFCI's actually did their job. I'll find out today but my thinking is that I should replace all the AFCI's just as a precaution.
 
kwired said:
I wouldn't be surprised if damage had already been done before attempting to reset the AFCI's the first time.
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All 12 AFCI's were tripped when I got there. Not sure if I caused any additional damage or not. Went back this morning and tried replacing the std. breakers with the AFCI's that I had pulled out and 9 out of 12 tripped immediately. I tried replacing the sevberal of circuits with each of the 3 that were functional and they worked fine. However, I'm suggesting to the HO that they all be replaced just as a precaution.
 
This sounds like an easy mistake. Next time I'm in a similar situation I'm going to leave the cover off and check voltages and probably have them unplug what they can before I get there maybe just leave a space heater or blow dryer on 1 of the phases.
 
Interesting and worth noting that the AFCIs tripped in this situation. I would not have assumed that would happen. (Nor would I assume it would always happen.)

To me the biggest lesson and theoretical point here is that just because voltages look fine with no current flowing does not mean all will stay well when you turn on load. A 'good ground' can make the neutral look okay when it's not. Not sure of a quick or easy way to catch this (other than visual inspection might be obvious).
 
jaggedben said:
Interesting and worth noting that the AFCIs tripped in this situation. I would not have assumed that would happen. (Nor would I assume it would always happen.)

To me the biggest lesson and theoretical point here is that just because voltages look fine with no current flowing does not mean all will stay well when you turn on load. A 'good ground' can make the neutral look okay when it's not. Not sure of a quick or easy way to catch this (other than visual inspection might be obvious).
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A hand held hair dryer is all you need.
 
ptonsparky said:
I haven't had the pleasure of lost neutral and AFCI or GFCI breakers being damaged. Sounds fun.

My warning is aimed at possibly being blamed for subsequent damage to any load side items. Innocent or not.
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I have a feeling many of them become nothing more than thermal magnetic breakers if the AFCI/GFCI circuitry fails.

Played around with Square D GFCI's before, particularly 2 pole units, and determined if you don't terminate the neutral pigtail you can still pass power through the ungrounded lines, and presume it still has thermal mag protection but could not make it trip by imposing a ground fault on the load side nor could I trip it with the test button. Never tried this with AFCI or dual function but guessing would get similar results. Also guessing if overvoltage damaged the AFCI/GFCI circuitry it would be the same results.

Not aware of circuit breaker type GFCI's having self testing, miswiring sensing and lockout features like the receptacles now have, which I think they must have to pass listing standards.
 
kwired said:
Not aware of circuit breaker type GFCI's having ... miswiring ... features like the receptacles now have ...
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If you know how to miswire a circuit-breaker-type GFCI, you're a lot more creative than I.
About the only miswiring possible is swapping the hot & white on the output, which a receptacle-type won't detect, either.
 
drcampbell said:
If you know how to miswire a circuit-breaker-type GFCI, you're a lot more creative than I.
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Not connecting the neutral is about all you can do wrong, without trying extra hard anyway. If it had some the same design as newer generation GFCI receptacles, it wouldn't reset without seeing power on the "input" to the logic board, you wouldn't be able to reset one that is properly connected if the panel has no power either. But I don't believe any these breakers have those kind of features.
 
goldstar said:
I don't think they would pay in this case. It wasn't their fault that the tree fell on the wire.
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If, as it appears, the line hit by the tree belonged to POCO, then given that it was an accident, the damage should be covered by POCO's insurance or self-insurance, not the home owners (or the EC's)
 
GoldDigger said:
If, as it appears, the line hit by the tree belonged to POCO, then given that it was an accident, the damage should be covered by POCO's insurance or self-insurance, not the home owners (or the EC's)
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The damage to the wire itself when the tree fell on it is covered by the POCO.
What happens when the wire breaks or it is ripped off the side of your house is your responsibility.

We see this situation after EVERY storm..
 
GoldDigger said:
If, as it appears, the line hit by the tree belonged to POCO, then given that it was an accident, the damage should be covered by POCO's insurance or self-insurance, not the home owners (or the EC's)
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POCOs here approach it as no negligence on their part. The tree falling was "an act of God" (or nature if you prefer).
Feel free to sue mother nature.
 
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