I understand. I’m speaking to my perceived unfair nature of the contractual obligation dynamic.
Undersizing engineer designated wire
- Thread starter Pinnie
- Start date
Seven-Delta-FortyOne
Goin’ Down In Flames........
- Location
- Humboldt
- Occupation
- EC and GC
@Pinnie
Different jobs, different specs.
On most residential, you have a lot of leeway within the Code.
If a project has an engineered set of drawings, you follow what has been approved. It’s not your job to change those plans, and there is still hundreds of things you’ll need to know the Code for.
If the owner of the company or the PM/estimator wanted to submit an RFI to get it changed, they would have. By the time you, the electrician, are on the job, you build it out according to plans. No one likes an electrician who comes back to the office to try and get things changed after the bid was awarded. I’ve worked with guys like that, and they annoyed everyone. And I wouldn’t allow it in my company.
As far as the process, it’s calls an RFI (Request For Information). Dozens get submitted after the initial job walk. Almost every job like that that I have bid, the Prime is the only one who can submit RFIs. The subs submit to the prime, the prime submits to the EOR.
The time for submitting RFIs usually closes several day to a week or more before the bid date. So if you have a project that has been awarded, and you are now on the job, just build it out according to the plans.
Different jobs, different specs.
On most residential, you have a lot of leeway within the Code.
If a project has an engineered set of drawings, you follow what has been approved. It’s not your job to change those plans, and there is still hundreds of things you’ll need to know the Code for.
If the owner of the company or the PM/estimator wanted to submit an RFI to get it changed, they would have. By the time you, the electrician, are on the job, you build it out according to plans. No one likes an electrician who comes back to the office to try and get things changed after the bid was awarded. I’ve worked with guys like that, and they annoyed everyone. And I wouldn’t allow it in my company.
As far as the process, it’s calls an RFI (Request For Information). Dozens get submitted after the initial job walk. Almost every job like that that I have bid, the Prime is the only one who can submit RFIs. The subs submit to the prime, the prime submits to the EOR.
The time for submitting RFIs usually closes several day to a week or more before the bid date. So if you have a project that has been awarded, and you are now on the job, just build it out according to the plans.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Then just work for a contractor. The workers don't have these issues. However, as a worker, deviation from the plans and specs, or the code requirements, that end up costing the contractor money many lead to the loss of your job.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
The part of the spec that says the contractor is responsible to meet applicable codes is not to relieve the engineer from any liability. This section is there because the design and specs may not have addressed all of the details required for a code compliant installation.
Although some spec books cover everything, most leave the actual installation details to the contractor. Other than government projects, I have not seen any specs that tell you when to use an 'Erickson' coupling nor many that have detailed how to strip and join branch circuit conductors
In that case why would an engineer want make an electrician change an installation after the fact that took liberties (different wiring method, conductor sizing) if it’s code compliant just because it’s not to spec. It should be between the owner/ahj and the contractor at that point.
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Gotcha. Thank you
For sure I agree. I was being dramatic when I said “what do we need to know code for”.
True. I’ve never been a part of the process. I just show up to the site and get handed a print.
Gotcha will do thank you.The time for submitting RFIs usually closes several day to a week or more before the bid date. So if you have a project that has been awarded, and you are now on the job, just build it out according to the plans.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Because the owner hired a professional engineer to design the project and protect the owners interests. It is not likely the owner has any idea what non-compliance with the contract documents means. His lack of electrical knowledge is one of the reasons a professional was hired to provide the plans and specs.
With a bid project, the plans and specs are contractual and non-compliance is breach of contract subject to civil penalties.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Because you were told specifically how to do something or what product to use. You agreed to do what the specs required when you bid the job without exceptions. You cannot cut corners after the bid.
And there are many projects where the contractor is explicitly given permission to make their own choices. The design documents were to put everyone on a common footing.
Right, but what motivates the engineer to pursue retribution. The engineer is not liable if the design is not followed to perfection. The engineer is a paid contractor working for the owner as well yes?
Let's say I want a cake but dont know how to make one, so I pay for someone to make me a recipe and then someone to bake it.
I get the recipe from the engineer and give it to the baker. The baker puts two eggs instead of one. The owner eats the cake. Its delicious, best cake he's ever eaten. Inspector comes and looks at the cake. "Wow" he says "that a cake right there.". Engineer bursts in the room, "He used two eggs instead of one!". The owner says, "Will the house burn down?". "No but you paid for one egg." or whatever you get the analogy. Say its a legitimate violation. totally get it, but what is the motivation. Reputation? Unlikely. Liabilty? Unlikely. Ego? Not out of the question.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Some times as simple as a design preference on the part of the designer. For example, I only permitted one brand of Liquidtight Flexible Metal Conduit connectors to be used on my projects, because past experience showed me that that brand performed much better long term in wet locations, even though other brands has the exact same listing. A contractor would have no way of knowing that there was an actual reason for my specification, and would want to use a different brand because the one I specified is more expensive.
I also specified XHHW, which is more expensive than THHN, for conductors between a VFD and a motor and for underground conduit runs because XHHW holds up better under those conditions. Again, both are code compliant, but is it design specification that I would enforce.
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gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The short answer to your original question is "no". You bid to the construction documents, and the customer is due what you bid. If you unilaterally change the design, that's fraud. You are stealing from the owner the difference in value of what was bid versus what was installed. If you want to save your company money, you can propose a change order to shift to the wire size and how much money you intend to return to the customer. If the customer is sharp, he'll be expecting you to give back your markup on the material as well, and really big customers have their own internal estimators to figure out what your markup likely is. In the end, you're unlikely to save your company all that much. He might let you keep the delta in labor to install the smaller cable, but unless that's hundreds of feet, you won't get much.
So then your motivation to correct said violation (if theres a better shorthand term for not following designer specs please let me know) would be pride in your work and a desire for the best installation possible. A commendable motivation. Also the desire to deliver a high quality product to your customer (the owner). Obviously, the way we should all be.
What say you on deviations from design that, let's say, have no perceivable effect on the installation quality. In the instance you mentioned earlier, about engineers that you know, demanding the installation of EMT, where it was called to be, rather than MC. There very well might be some local code like in Chicago that require every installation to be piped. Totally fair, no problem there. However in reality, what motivates todays owner. Money baby. If you bid EMT and they accept it, and they come back and say "Hey you promised EMT, what gives?". Boom. Dead to rights, you failed to deliver on your contractual promise, and a required to remedy that. But lets say its above ceiling and the owner will never see it, and truthfully they dont care. They are happy with the price to achieve the predetermined outcome. A finished, safe, and code compliant installation. In the case of no perceivable benefit, I get your stance, "Its not the contractors place to take liberties". You are right. Thats completely true. On paper and otherwise. But the owner (at least the ones ive dealt with) are motivated by money. Cheap and fast. And contractors have thin margins. Thats all I'm saying. I know you cant make a blantant statement that dismisses drawings as a whole, and I'm not, nor would I ever go against a drawing specification. Just thinking out loud.
Totally agree. As is should be. Now is that what happens in the field? Not what have been modeled for me. I've worked with some "Git her dun" guys that have the boss breathing down their neck because they bid too thin. Ive only worked at one company though so my experience is limited.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I am sorry, but my opinion is that EMT is better than safer than MC and I will hold you to that specification. It doesn't matter that your opinion is different.
If you want to value engineer the job, the time to do that is before the contract documents are signed.
Okay.... Not sure why your being coarse while I'm being cordial.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
none of my comments are out of line, I am sorry if you don't like them
definitely not "encouraging" dialogue.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
You stated it was your opinion that MC and EMT are 100% equivalent and I stated that in my opinion that they are not. I don't see an issue and I stand by everything I have said in this thread.
I actually never said that, not that it matters, but whatever.