Is Listing and Labeling really required?

[nietzj]

We are having a serious discussion amongst fellow electricians and the question is does the NEC NFPA 70 actually require equipment to be Listed and Labeled? We all assume it did but the NEC is doing a great job of hiding it if it does. Art 110.1,110.2,110.3 tell you all about it but there is other language that makes this less than clear, such as Approved, Identified or Evaluated. After looking very closely at this I'm not as sure as I once was. Can anyone show me where the NEC says equipment must be Listed and Labeled?

 

[NEC Inspector]

Certain equipment does, such as luminaires and wire connectors, but there is no requirement in the NEC that all equipment must be listed and labeled.

Unless you are in a jurisdiction that enforces the IRC on electrical. The IRC electrical section is directly ripped off from the NEC (with NFPA's permission), and the forward lets you know that there are only a few differences, the main one being that all equipment must be listed.

That is why the code mentions listing and labeling in specific sections, and new ones get added every once in awhile. Seems like they added generators to the list in the 2020 edition... I can't remember anything specific in the 2023 NEC.

 

[nietzj]

Thank you, for decades it was my assumption all equipment from a wire nut to switchgear needed to be Listed and Labeled. In situations of equipment arriving without a Label I have on occasion had to hire a 3rd party electrical engineer to evaluate and approve the equipment prior to being energized. Looking back I should have challenged this thinking long ago.

 

[electrofelon]

Thank you, for decades it was my assumption all equipment from a wire nut to switchgear needed to be Listed and Labeled. In situations of equipment arriving without a Label I have on occasion had to hire a 3rd party electrical engineer to evaluate and approve the equipment prior to being energized. Looking back I should have challenged this thinking long ago.

As NEC inspector said, there are actually few things that the NEC requires to be listed. However it is fairly common for jurisdictions to use listing as the criteria for 110.2, approval.

There is no provision in the NEC that allows an EE to approve equipment. Your local jurisdiction perhaps would accept that, but the "proper" route would be a field evaluation by a NRTL.

 

[nietzj]

110.2 Conductors or equipment required or permitted only if approved.
Art100 -Approved: Acceptable by the AHJ

This is the dilemma, in my state there is a state statute that allows for a 3rd party evaluation for approval if equipment is not Listed or Labeled. That's great but that evaluation generally cost $5-$10k and is technically only good for 12 months. In the end it still looks the AHJ is responsible for approving and/or liability of any equipment.
A field evaluation by a NRTL is complicated, now we get into manufacturers fighting about listed vs certified vs evaluated vs identified.
The more I dig into this the less clear it becomes.

 

[garbo]

Not sure of today standards but years ago no foreign machine ever had listings. We had a $10 million state of the art German machine that if you held in the stop button while hitting the start button it would start up & run as lit g SD you kept the start button pushed on. We had one machine that came with a selector switch to bypass the 8 door switches. My thinking was bare minimum they should have used a keyed switch to bypass door switches along with a flashing light. Most mechanics refused to make adjustments while that machine was running.

 

[nietzj]

It would be nice to have clear consistent direction on this issue. The way I see it is it's very open to the AHJ's opinion, which sounds good but also leads to confrontation and possibly litigation.
For example, some company donates a $500k piece of equipment to a school which comes with no Listing or Label. So you hire a 3rd party evaluator to have the equipment evaluated. All looks good and the EE provides a written report to the AHJ it's good to go. That approval needs to be renewed every 12 months which of course never happens, so after the 12 month the equipment overheats and causes major property damage, who is responsible? The owner? The AHJ? The EE? maybe the Contractor?
I guess the AHJ could take the safe route and not approve anything without a listing or attached label but you know the first question from the owner or contractor will be based on what exact language. No great options.

 

[jim dungar]

That approval needs to be renewed every 12 months...

Why would an installed item need an annual review?
Do you need annual reinspections for other AHJ approvals like field cut entries into listed equipment or raceway supports?
For decades almost every motor installed did not carry any Listing.

 

[NEC Inspector]

All looks good and the EE provides a written report to the AHJ it's good to go. That approval needs to be renewed every 12 months which of course never happens

The approval does not need to be renewed ever 12 months, you just won't be able to use the same approval for an identical piece of equipment after the 12 months expired. Once the AHJ issues a Certificate of Occupancy for the building or they close an electrical permit, they are done and can't come back in without permission or a warrant.

, so after the 12 month the equipment overheats and causes major property damage, who is responsible? The owner? The AHJ? The EE? maybe the Contractor?
I guess the AHJ could take the safe route and not approve anything without a listing or attached label but you know the first question from the owner or contractor will be based on what exact language. No great options.

The AHJ is never "responsible" for anything. The only time they can be held to account is if you can prove they acted with deliberate malice. There have been a few scattered cases where gross negligence charges were able to stick, but those are quite rare and nearly impossible to achieve. It's literally written into the law and the administrative sections of the building code and adoption ordinances that they are not responsible for anything they miss or mistakes they make.

Same deal with the police. Most egregious examples would be ones who didn't act quickly to stop a school shooting when they clearly had the opportunity to do so. I think they finally got the Uvalde guy on several counts of endangering a minor, but that took years. I don't remember if anything ever did happen to the Broward guy. Or a guy I know who lives a couple hours away had a car stolen with trackable Apple devices inside, and the police refused to do anything about it, even though they knew exactly where it was.

There are a whole lot of problems with qualified immunity as applied in America. Qualified immunity is necessary for a whole host of reasons, but it needs adjusted to deal effectively with abuses.

 

[nietzj]

The language in our state statue says:


Evaluation by a testing laboratory or by a registered or licensed electrical engineer who has no financial or other interest in the manufacture or sale of the equipment, provided that any deficiencies identified by the evaluation are corrected and the equipment complies with the listed requirements. A written report of the evaluation shall be submitted directly to the board, and shall state the standards that were applied in the evaluation. Evaluation reports by an electrical engineer acting independently of a testing laboratory shall also include an item-by-item comparison of the equipment with the requirements to be listed. If the board finds that the evaluation or evaluation report is incomplete or inaccurate, it retains the right to require further evidence of compliance or to reject the equipment.

Evaluations conducted according to the procedures in this item shall be considered evidence of compliance of all identical equipment produced by that manufacturer for a period of one year from the time the evaluation was completed, or until the equipment has been listed, whichever is less, provided that the manufacturer has applied for listing of the equipment, or produces fewer than 100 such units per year. Where additional identical equipment will be produced, the manufacturer shall provide the board with a written statement giving the equipment model number and agreeing that all subsequent equipment will be identical to that which was evaluated and, where the equipment has not been submitted for listing, shall also provide a written report to the board 12 months from the date of the evaluation report which lists the serial numbers of the equipment installed in Minnesota over the preceding 12 months.

Where deficiencies are identified by the initial evaluation report, those deficiencies shall be corrected for all subsequent units, the changes shall be verified by the person who performed the initial evaluation, and an amended report shall be submitted to the board. If the manufacturer deviates from the construction established by the evaluation report, the equipment shall be reevaluated and any noncomplying equipment that was sold brought into compliance.

Is this clear to anyone? How do you know if there has been less than 100 units produced? Who is keeping track of this? My guess is this language was written by the manufacturer's lawyers to intentionally be vague.

 

[NEC Inspector]

Evaluations conducted according to the procedures in this item shall be considered evidence of compliance of all identical equipment produced by that manufacturer for a period of one year from the time the evaluation was completed, or until the equipment has been listed, whichever is less, provided that the manufacturer has applied for listing of the equipment, or produces fewer than 100 such units per year.

Right. The listing is a permanent approval of the equipment evaluated and any identical equipment made during the next year. Once the equipment manufactured during that period is installed, that equipment never needs to be evaluated for listing again.

If they build an identical piece of equipment one year and one day after this evaluation, that piece of equipment would need to be evaluated to make sure they are still being made to the same standard - basically the factory is renewing it's "license" to build that model of equipment under listing approval.

 

[nietzj]

Right. The listing is a permanent approval of the equipment evaluated and any identical equipment made during the next year. Once the equipment manufactured during that period is installed, that equipment never needs to be evaluated for listing again.

Ok, that makes sense, now is that equipment considered Listed? or some version of identified/evaluated/approved/certified? Curious if a 3rd party evaluation from Minnesota would be accepted in another state.

 

[electrofelon]

Same deal with the police. Most egregious examples would be ones who didn't act quickly to stop a school shooting when they clearly had the opportunity to do so. I think they finally got the Uvalde guy on several counts of endangering a minor, but that took years. I don't remember if anything ever did happen to the Broward guy. Or a guy I know who lives a couple hours away had a car stolen with trackable Apple devices inside, and the police refused to do anything about it, even though they knew exactly where it was.

Radiolab did a very interesting piece on this:

No Special Duty

A look at what happens when the police don’t do the one thing you expect them to.

radiolab.org

Many people do not realize this, but the police are under no obligation to help people or prevent anything.

 

[suemarkp]

Your Minnesota NRTL rules seems similar to those here in WA. Any electrical equipment needs to be NRTL listed, or evaluated by a state approved 3rd party Field Evaluation Body. WA maintains a list of the approved field evaluation bodies and OSHA has a list of all the different approved NRTL marks. For residential, this is rarely enforced, but the electrical inspector could check for it. Non listed cord and plug items are especially hard to check as they often aren't around when an inspector is inspectin a new branch circuit or panel. If it is installed in a business or otherwise inspected by OSHA or a state equivalent safety organization, they tend to catch all the unlisted items, even the cord and plug ones.

I worked for a large aerospace company and spent my last year searching for and certifying non-NRTL items, or telling the owning organization to hire a field evaluation body if I felt the item was beyond my capabilities to approve. I'm not sure of their self inspection plan will hold water in WA state. In the end, it probably would have been cheaper to just replace all the old unlisted stuff with new listed items.

 

[Rjryan]

We are having a serious discussion amongst fellow electricians and the question is does the NEC NFPA 70 actually require equipment to be Listed and Labeled? We all assume it did but the NEC is doing a great job of hiding it if it does. Art 110.1,110.2,110.3 tell you all about it but there is other language that makes this less than clear, such as Approved, Identified or Evaluated. After looking very closely at this I'm not as sure as I once was. Can anyone show me where the NEC says equipment must be Listed and Labeled?

We are having a serious discussion amongst fellow electricians and the question is does the NEC NFPA 70 actually require equipment to be Listed and Labeled? We all assume it did but the NEC is doing a great job of hiding it if it does. Art 110.1,110.2,110.3 tell you all about it but there is other language that makes this less than clear, such as Approved, Identified or Evaluated. After looking very closely at this I'm not as sure as I once was. Can anyone show me where the NEC says equipment must be Listed and Labeled?

Unfortunately, the NEC does not require everything to be listed. However, 110.2 does require everything to be approved and that is defined in the Article 100 as acceptable to the AHJ.

90.7 permits the AHJ to base approval on product certification, listing. If it is not listed, then 110.3(A) requires the AHJ to evaluate the installation to the 9 items identified as well as other applicable NEC requirements. If the AHJ is not comfortable with evaluating the equipment and installation themselves, they could require a field evaluation by a field evaluation body acceptable to the AHJ.

There are parts of the NEC that do require listing of equipment. You mentioned conductors, as an example 300.5(B) requires that conductors installed in wet location are to be of a type listed for use in wet locations. Additionally, within in Chapter 3 the specific raceway and cable Articles in the .6 section requires both the raceway/cable and associated fittings to be listed. As an example, Article 330.6 requires MC cable to be listed as well as the fittings. Article 358.6 requires EMT to be listed as well as the fittings.

Not my answer, but the best answer I got from someone involved with listing. I always thought everything electrical covered by the NEC had to be labeled and listed.

 

[kwired]

Any electrical equipment needs to be NRTL listed, or evaluated by a state approved 3rd party Field Evaluation Body.

Where is the line drawn where "electrical equipment" stops but some item like a supporting member for "electrical equipment" is in question?

Could be framing members supporting the item or individual fasteners

 

[WD40]

Unfortunately, the NEC does not require everything to be listed.

I would say fortunately the NEC does not require everything to be listed.

 

[suemarkp]

Where is the line drawn where "electrical equipment" stops but some item like a supporting member for "electrical equipment" is in question?

Could be framing members supporting the item or individual fasteners

In our state code the definition seems to be utilization type equipment where a NRTL is required (and it seems by the state definition, a handheld flashlight would be required to be listed). The NEC requires some wiring components to be listed (e.g. fuses/breakers, conduits, wires, fittings, etc), but didn't I read that the NEC is going to require cable securing means to be listed, e.g. cables ties, staples, etc??

 

[WD40]

but didn't I read that the NEC is going to require cable securing means to be listed, e.g. cables ties, staples, etc??

I am waiting for a mechanic to replace the brakes in my van today if he messes up my van will fail to stop and I might cause a fatal accident, that mechanic has no license, no permit, no inspections and no UL listed parts. I am fine with permits, inspections, even AFCI breakers but stuff like this UL listed every nut bolt and fitting like rain tight EMT fittings drive me bonkers.

 

[kwired]

but didn't I read that the NEC is going to require cable securing means to be listed, e.g. cables ties, staples, etc??

I think it may be coming. I can maybe understand certain items being required to some extent but don't agree that all need to be. For cable ties, a tensile rating suitable for the application and whether exposed to UV makes some sense. But then this is sort of like should I use 1/4" all thread or 1/2" all thread to support a trapeze type strut rack? Makes a difference if you hanging 3 or 4 inch rigid with 500 copper pulled through it vs 1/2 and 3/4 EMT with only 10 or 12 AWG conductors in them.