Estimating residential

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Joseph mulherin

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Location
blythe,ga 30805
I just started a electrical contracting company in Georgia, its risky cause I no nothing about business or estimating.But I am going head first, and taking the chance. I want to get the jobs, what is the best formula for bidding residential remodel jobs, not new construction, its been 16 years since I worked on a residential job.

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George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I just started a electrical contracting company in Georgia, its risky cause I no nothing about business or estimating.But I am going head first, and taking the chance. I want to get the jobs, what is the best formula for bidding residential remodel jobs, not new construction, its been 16 years since I worked on a residential job.

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Think about the lifestyle you want to live. Do you want a new bass boat every three years? A new full size diesel pickup every two years? A 500,000 house and six weeks paid vacation a year? Full insurance with no copays, full disability, paid paternity, and so on? Of course. In addition, you're going to need a new company vehicle every two years, because you have to maintain appearances for new customers. You are going to need to buy TV, radio and Internet advertising to keep the phone ringing. On top of that you have to figure that 75% of your time is going to be non-productive and adding to overhead. Add all these costs up and charge accordingly. The customer that can't see the value in paying $496 an hour for good quality service and an American flag patch on your sleeve is a customer you don't need.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Think about the lifestyle you want to live. Do you want a new bass boat every three years? A new full size diesel pickup every two years? A 500,000 house and six weeks paid vacation a year? Full insurance with no copays, full disability, paid paternity, and so on? Of course. In addition, you're going to need a new company vehicle every two years, because you have to maintain appearances for new customers. You are going to need to buy TV, radio and Internet advertising to keep the phone ringing. On top of that you have to figure that 75% of your time is going to be non-productive and adding to overhead. Add all these costs up and charge accordingly. The customer that can't see the value in paying $496 an hour for good quality service and an American flag patch on your sleeve is a customer you don't need.
Easy now. A good living can be made without becoming a shichester selling service upgrades to old ladies when they call needing help with a tripped breaker.

What you say about paperwork ie. working on the business side takes up a lot of time and energy is true.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
There is nothing schiester about charging for the lifestyle you want to lead! Heretic!

Edit: Dave, that was the condensed version of a popular book on the topic. :)
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
If I'd known in 1979 the scope of things I didn't know, I don't know if I would have gone into business.

Lots still that I don't know or am not good at, but at least now I know that there is a lot that I don't know.

Know what I mean? (talking about business, not electrical skills):)
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
I just started a electrical contracting company in Georgia, its risky cause I no nothing about business or estimating.But I am going head first, and taking the chance. I want to get the jobs, what is the best formula for bidding residential remodel jobs, not new construction, its been 16 years since I worked on a residential job.

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Just because you get the project does not mean you will make money from it.

There are many lessons to be learned when running your own business. One, Do not accept the phrase "you charge what the market is able to pay" You charge based on your expectations from your business and the goals that you set.

Take sales classes, learn how to operate a business, learn from your and other's mistakes and continue to grow.

There is no magic bullet that you can charge per opening or per SQFT. It doe not matter what you charge, I guarantee someone will do it for cheaper.
 

Joseph mulherin

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
blythe,ga 30805
Thank you thats some good advice, and your right, and I am finding in my first week its a dirty business, contracting period

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thank you thats some good advice, and your right, and I am finding in my first week its a dirty business, contracting period

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And residential work is often "cut throat". Many are only looking for lowest bid, you need to sell yourself and why you are a good choice of contractor because if you get a majority of your jobs because you were lowest bid - your business will not last long.

Also someone else mentioned it - if it has been 16 years since you did residential work - are you up on what codes have changed since then? If you walked out of a time machine from 1999 into today - you would not pass dwelling inspections even if you were on top of the game for 1999 standards, non dwelling inspections you would still have a good chance of passing on most items.
 

Joseph mulherin

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
blythe,ga 30805
Yeah I am catching up on the codes, couple questions, arc fault are required where? I read they recently updated the requirements on arc fault to, and I am doing some remodels, they gave me a scope of work to bid, and I know and told the gc that by code you will be required to rewire the house cause its a old two wire system with no ground, if I pull a permit, I cant change the two prong outlets to three without pulling wire all the way back to the panel and then driving ground rods, he told me to bid the scope, it sounds a little shady

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JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Yeah I am catching up on the codes, couple questions, arc fault are required where? I read they recently updated the requirements on arc fault to, and I am doing some remodels, they gave me a scope of work to bid, and I know and told the gc that by code you will be required to rewire the house cause its a old two wire system with no ground, if I pull a permit, I cant change the two prong outlets to three without pulling wire all the way back to the panel and then driving ground rods, he told me to bid the scope, it sounds a little shady

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AFCI reqs vary by area/code. Here, for now, its bedrooms only. Here, again, you wouldnt have to rewire the entire house unless the entire thing was being renovated. GFCI as first device and stickers on the rest on that circuit is sufficient protection here, ground wire or not. While permissive, that's pretty impossible on older homes here since many devices are spidered out of a light box and the boxes are going to be too small/too many wires to put GFCI everywhere. Also keep in mind you need neutrals at every light switch now (with few exceptions).
 

Joseph mulherin

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
blythe,ga 30805
The inspector said that he wants new wire pulled back to the panel, in order to put a three prong outlet, I read you can put a sticker on the device but what do you do if the inspector wants new wire

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Joseph mulherin

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
blythe,ga 30805
So what would you do, the power is on at the house, I am changing, outlets, light fixtures, smokes, putting a new face on the electrical, they want a permit but do not want to dump a whole lot of money in to it

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Depends on which NEC applies as well as any local amendments.

If you are on 2014 NEC with no amendments - AFCI required on nearly all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt branch circuits, from what I've read 2017 will be practically all. I could be missing something but about only things not required in 2014 is the bathroom, garages, unfinished or non habitable areas, outdoors. Now just because those items do not require AFCI doesn't mean they won't end up having it. If you choose to supply outdoor outlets from same circuit supplying indoor outlets that require protection - it will be protected anyway.

Replacing existing devices there is some conflict in 2014. Exception in 210.12(B) says "AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) and does not include any additional outlets or devices".

But 406.4(D)(4) says you must provide AFCI protection for replacement receptacles in locations "supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code".

There are options for equipment grounding when replacing a non grounding type receptacle also in 406.4(D) - you could have local amendments that change those.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
GFCI as first device and stickers on the rest on that circuit is sufficient protection here, ground wire or not.

The inspector said that he wants new wire pulled back to the panel, in order to put a three prong outlet, I read you can put a sticker on the device but what do you do if the inspector wants new wire


You need to go and talk with the inspector and make sure he is understanding what you wish to do. Take your code book with you and be prepared to show that a GFCI protected circuit is allowed to have a three pronged outlet ( NEC allowed ).

I don't know the area that you are working in and they may have a local requirement that the house be rewired. If they do then make sure that the inspector gives you some information about this local requirement ( local amendment ).

If they do require that the house be rewired then you would have to bid it as a rewire but so would any other contractor that's doing the job legally.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
The inspector said that he wants new wire pulled back to the panel, in order to put a three prong outlet, I read you can put a sticker on the device but what do you do if the inspector wants new wire


Find out what the code is for your area. I've seen Mike Holt's video re: receptacle replacement, and if that was all you are doing, a 2 prong direct replacement, 3 prong fed from GFCI marked "No equipment ground", or a GFCI receptacle are all allowed. Now, new circuits, all 3 or 4 wire (range, dryer) have to be used, even moving a 3 prong range outlet in a reno kitchen has to be 4 wire here (basically, 'you touch it, you bring it up to code'). All receptacles here have to be TR type as well (may be there as well).

BTW, putting in AFCIs on a remodel may be a frustrating process, finding where two+ circuits have neutrals tied together, especially in multiple places. Plan on going into boxes you werent planning on going in...

Pulling in grounded wire from the panel to an existing receptacle/switch wired with 2 wire alone makes zero sense since everything fed from it would still be 2 wire.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
The inspector said that he wants new wire pulled back to the panel, in order to put a three prong outlet, I read you can put a sticker on the device but what do you do if the inspector wants new wire

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The inspector wants new wire...Have him show you in writing where this has been adopted by your city as Code. If he can't show you, then you show him as has been stated that GFCI's at the first receptacle with stickers on the remainder with "No Equipment Ground" is NEC acceptable.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
So what would you do, the power is on at the house, I am changing, outlets, light fixtures, smokes, putting a new face on the electrical, they want a permit but do not want to dump a whole lot of money in to it

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They want new electrical devices, fixtures, smoke detectors but don't want to spend a fortune ? I wouldn't want this customer.then. You can't work for free & electrical work is not your hobby. What field of employment is the home owner in ? Ask him to work for half of his going rate & see how far that flys.
 
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