Wall TV above hydro massage tub

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nizak

Senior Member
Can a receptacle be installed on a wall approx 4' above the deck of an interior hydro massage tub? It would be for a television.

I don't have my code book in front of me but recall there being restrictions within a bathtub zone.

Thanks.
 

packersparky

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Inspector
Nope.

406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be
installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

The key words being "directly over". IMHO, "directly over" a bathtub is from the edge of the tub to the ceiling. If the receptacle is not in the space describred above, it is not a violation.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Would a hydro massage tub be considered a spa and subject to 680?

On a practical (not NEC) note, I dont think any (many) TVs would hold up well to damp/wet locations, and even if they were, the mounting would be more crucial than anything.

"Within a (shower stall)" - if it were, say, a glass enclosed shower, even if the receptacle were recessed, and not directly over the tub or shower, it would still be a violation, yes?
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
Can a receptacle be installed on a wall approx 4' above the deck of an interior hydro massage tub? It would be for a television.

I don't have my code book in front of me but recall there being restrictions within a bathtub zone.

Thanks.

GFCI protection required. Other than that Go For It
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Within a bathtub?

Heh. Yeah, the code could be read that way, since there are four options ("within or directly over" and "or"). If it didnt read that way, at least one mfg would try to put an outlet in a tub, or someone would try to cut thru the porcelain and cast iron to install a receptacle. and it wouldnt violate code.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Would a hydro massage tub be considered a spa and subject to 680?
Is not a spa, however 680 part VII applies.

680.70 and 680.72 are about only things to read there and then you get sent back to general requirements of chapters 1-4 for anything that is not directly associated with the tub.

GFCI protection is required by general rules in 210.8 - in most cases is required simply because it is in a bathroom.

Unless the side walls of the tub are flush with the wall the receptacle is mounted on - it is not in or over the tub space.

I don't get why one needs a TV there in the first place, other then to show off that they can afford to do so. How much time does one spend in the tub? How long do medical professionals recommend you sit in such a tub? Maybe long enough sometimes to watch a 1/2 hour sitcom, but definitely not a 2 or 3 hour movie or sports event.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Unless the side walls of the tub are flush with the wall the receptacle is mounted on - it is not in or over the tub space..

I know others have expressed the same opinion but I think most inspectors will include the any deck or flat surface around the tub as part of the tub.

If I was asked to do this I would say no, it is a code violation.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
what about 12vdc? they make monitors that run low vdc. you would mount a jbox but the wire would be low v and the cover would have the correct jack in it for the "tv".
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
what about 12vdc? they make monitors that run low vdc. you would mount a jbox but the wire would be low v and the cover would have the correct jack in it for the "tv".

How about locating the TV not over the tub?

Code aside i would not sleep well installing any set up that might result in a person standing in a tub while touching a TV trying to adjust it.

They can hire someone else to do it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know others have expressed the same opinion but I think most inspectors will include the any deck or flat surface around the tub as part of the tub.

If I was asked to do this I would say no, it is a code violation.
Do they have a good reference to set a limit to the size of said deck or flat surface around the tub? One could have a receptacle just outside said area and still be able to actually reach the television or even the receptacle in question. If it is of that much concern then they need similar rule as they would have if it were a swimming pool or hot tub - 5 feet from inside walls of tub to the receptacle, that is fairly clear. Same rule would make the required receptacle for the bath sink vicinity hard to comply with in some instances though.

That said I do think it is a bad idea to place it there, but also feel it doesn't violate what is written.
 

darkov

Member
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
I know others have expressed the same opinion but I think most inspectors will include the any deck or flat surface around the tub as part of the tub.

If I was asked to do this I would say no, it is a code violation.
I see that very often and to me it is a code violation. Tub zone is from the edge of tub (or from the face of knee wall sorounding tub) and 8 ft. up above.
If outlet is more than 8 ft above tub than it's ok.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
How about locating the TV not over the tub?

Code aside i would not sleep well installing any set up that might result in a person standing in a tub while touching a TV trying to adjust it.
I agree; sometimes common sense must prevail irrespective of the code language. The code, like the Law, is sometimes vulnerable to perambulations and interpretations that would permit an action which is clearly against the spirit, if not the letter, of the regulations. One thing that the Jurassic Park series of films has shown us is that just because something is possible doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I see that very often and to me it is a code violation. Tub zone is from the edge of tub (or from the face of knee wall sorounding tub) and 8 ft. up above.
If outlet is more than 8 ft above tub than it's ok.

Can you reference code section(s) that verify all of what you said there?

Inside walls of tub, can maybe be assumed at the very minimum, 8 ft up also can possibly be determined from other items prohibited in the "tub zone" Otherwise one may have as little as a couple inches of "deck, ledge, etc. surrounding the tub or up to several feet. That is why if there is to be a limit outside the tub walls I like how they do it with swimming pools and hot tubs - 5 feet from inside wall of the tub/pool, but then as I said before, with such a rule you can have an otherwise required receptacle near a basin that is too close to the tub.

We also have this discussion with switch locations that end up next to tubs or showers from time to time. Generally the rule is not inside the tub or shower space, without further definition I still think that space ends at the inside walls of a tub or with a shower the space that is inside any wall, door, or other partition that generally separates the wet from the dry locations.
 

darkov

Member
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Can you reference code section(s) that verify all of what you said there?

Inside walls of tub, can maybe be assumed at the very minimum, 8 ft up also can possibly be determined from other items prohibited in the "tub zone" Otherwise one may have as little as a couple inches of "deck, ledge, etc. surrounding the tub or up to several feet. That is why if there is to be a limit outside the tub walls I like how they do it with swimming pools and hot tubs - 5 feet from inside wall of the tub/pool, but then as I said before, with such a rule you can have an otherwise required receptacle near a basin that is too close to the tub.

We also have this discussion with switch locations that end up next to tubs or showers from time to time. Generally the rule is not inside the tub or shower space, without further definition I still think that space ends at the inside walls of a tub or with a shower the space that is inside any wall, door, or other partition that generally separates the wet from the dry locations.
OK, tub surrounding is part of tub, and I see it as tub zone. Unfortunately code is not clear in some situations, like, "is blanked J-box prohibited in tub zone"
There is nowhere in code that says that you can't have it, and many are using it as a loop hole and next you know it, after inspection blank cover is gone and there it comes receptacle and TV.
It's all matter of different views until code sets more clear rules.
 

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
OK, tub surrounding is part of tub, and I see it as tub zone. Unfortunately code is not clear in some situations, like, "is blanked J-box prohibited in tub zone"
There is nowhere in code that says that you can't have it, and many are using it as a loop hole and next you know it, after inspection blank cover is gone and there it comes receptacle and TV.
It's all matter of different views until code sets more clear rules.

not unlike VW pulling the switch-a-roo on emissions testing ;)

nothing stopping anyone from breaking the law after the fact, etc.

why is wet location outlet in tub area any different than a wet location outlet on my front-outside wall of my home? worse case scenario for the outside outlet is about the same as standing in tub water??

if outlet is outside tub area (nec compliant) can the tv cord be in the no-zone while plugged into the compliant outlet?

to me, its not the outlet that's the hazard, its the tv itself, it likely has some higher voltage running inside with enough power ability to provide a good shock.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
...
to me, its not the outlet that's the hazard, its the tv itself, it likely has some higher voltage running inside with enough power ability to provide a good shock.
Definitely true of CRT based TVs or plasma TVs, or even the fluorescent backlight of some LCD TVs.
But straight OLED or LED backlit panels are not likely to have any voltage over about 12v. They will have a line voltage input rather than an external power brick for the most part.
 
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