Wrapping THHN around screws is certainly not quality

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Most of us find it repulsive. However I am having a small issue with someone in a building I am responsible for after they do there contract.

What do you guys recommend as the correct approach. I can think of several ways to describe this as poor practice.

The receptacles are not the type BW or flap style. They have just wrapped a stranded THHN around a screw. These device will be taking a beating regardless and I need them to be built well.

I already take there quality and craftsmanship into question. They know this as I have stated multiple times.

When they started we had a conversation about this exact method of installation and how he would not do that.

I think I should approach him prepared and correctly before I chop his head with the property owner.

What do you guys think my approach should be?

My reasons would be workman like manner and that it's not a listed installation for that device yoke? Any more blatant codes? Or proof of this as a poor method?

Thanks all

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packersparky

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Inspector
Most receptacles are listed for solid or stranded wire. "Neat and workmanlike manner" is very objective and in many cases unenforceable. I personally have used stranded wire on receptacle screws and have not had any issues if it is done correctly.
 
Why do you say that it is not a listed installation? Does the device documentation say solid only?

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You must follow ALL manufacturer instructions including
- a "qualified Electrician" install
-wrap conductor securely around terminal screw
-tighten screws 9-12 lb per sq in Torque

I'm sure these 3 were not followed

Also I have found in my research that UL does not endorse using spade terminals because it's not included in there testing as of 2008. So really this guy needs to use Back wire or solid pigtails like he agreed ahead of time.
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Little Bill

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There are a couple (maybe more) of ways to terminate stranded wire on terminal screws that work well. Unless the device says "solid wire only" then stranded wire is acceptable.

Maybe it doesn't sometimes look as good as solid, but as long as there is a good/proper termination it is fine. To "go after" someone for using it is, IMO, inappropriate. Unless they are working off a set of plans that stipulate "solid only"

ETA: You posted the spec while I was posting. It says right in your specs "solid or stranded"!
 
I do not believe that the out of state guys he has even have Michigan licensing

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That is a seperate issue. You just want to go after this guy for any reason dont you? Come on, give us the gossip. How did he hurt your feelings?

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There are a couple (maybe more) of ways to terminate stranded wire on terminal screws that work well. Unless the device says "solid wire only" then stranded wire is acceptable.

Maybe it doesn't sometimes look as good as solid, but as long as there is a good/proper termination it is fine. To "go after" someone for using it is, IMO, inappropriate. Unless they are working off a set of plans that stipulate "solid only"

ETA: You posted the spec while I was posting. It says right in your specs "solid or stranded"!
Yes, I realize that. The point is not that it's always a bad method. These people are going to abuse every single receptacle. They will Try to power strip and split and use heat lamps and hot boxes. They melt and break of prongs regularly. AAAAAnd I had a whole conversation with the guy about it and he agreed and said word for word he would backwire them all.

ALSO many boxes roller coaster all of the walls and some are dangling like a bobble head.

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That is a seperate issue. You just want to go after this guy for any reason dont you? Come on, give us the gossip. How did he hurt your feelings?

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Yessss actually many ways. I can't stand a HACK. Especially when the hack is doing work for my client. For many reasons political and monetary he is doing the work - not me. Which is fine - whatever but don't lie - don't hack and also don't come wobbling in here messing up my game.

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user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
Also notice the "manufacturer instructions" only picture solid in the visual

And they sell most 20a models with BW

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That doesn't matter- unless it explicitly forbids you from using stranded wire on those terminals, there is no violation of 110.3(B).

Notice too that the device does allow both solid and stranded......

Yessss actually many ways. I can't stand a HACK. Especially when the hack is doing work for my client. For many reasons political and monetary he is doing the work - not me. Which is fine - whatever but don't lie - don't hack and also don't come wobbling in here messing up my game.

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C'MON man, if he is following the instructions, or at least not violating code, you can't nail him for this.
Also, per the earlier post about the receptacles being abused- as long as those devices are firmly mounted, there is no issue.

I don't work much w/ stranded #12 at all, let alone terminate it, but I do know that there are plenty of very good experienced electricians who are far from being any sort of hack that do wrap stranded. I wouldn't let a personal vendetta against this one individual (if thats what this is and it sounds like it) to color a commonly done and safe practice.
 
That doesn't matter- unless it explicitly forbids you from using stranded wire on those terminals, there is no violation of 110.3(B).

Notice too that the device does allow both solid and stranded......



C'MON man, if he is following the instructions, or at least not violating code, you can't nail him for this.
Also, per the earlier post about the receptacles being abused- as long as those devices are firmly mounted, there is no issue.

I don't work much w/ stranded #12 at all, let alone terminate it, but I do know there are plenty of very good experienced electricians who are far from being any sort of hack do wrap stranded. I wouldn't let a personal vendetta against this one individual (if thats what this is and it sounds like it) to color a commonly done and safe practice.
Where does it say in the code to leave a few strands to stray in free air outside the terminal?
Do your friends also do this or this?
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If you READ the instructions you will see it says "solid or stranded"!
Yea it also says to "wrap conductor securely"
If moving the wire moves the screw is that secure?
Is leaving a few strands to fly mid air(not under terminal screw) secure?
It also says to torque to 9-12 lbs per sq in.
LMAO it's not the right device to use it's a cheap hat trick and Hubbel just makes they product sound good by getting UL to list it for stranded when they clearly have models more suited to the wire! Loose connections cause wire and device to heat up in order to carry more electricity. Fact that poor connection cause me to have to replace and deal with unhappy people when they breaker trips because there 18a draw tripped a 20a circuit because the hot connection cause the load to increase. See the picture I'm painting? Ya it sucks that we have to overbuild but that's what it Takes. A jewelry store doesn't want 2 lights. And I don't want wires wrapped especially when we agreed you would Backwire.

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user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
Yea it also says to "wrap conductor securely"
If moving the wire moves the screw is that secure?
Is leaving a few strands to fly mid air(not under terminal screw) secure?
It also says to torque to 9-12 lbs per sq in.
LMAO it's not the right device to use it's a cheap hat trick and Hubbel just makes they product sound good by getting UL to list it for stranded when they clearly have models more suited to the wire! Loose connections cause wire and device to heat up in order to carry more electricity. Fact that poor connection cause me to have to replace and deal with unhappy people when they breaker trips because there 18a draw tripped a 20a circuit because the hot connection cause the load to increase. See the picture I'm painting? Ya it sucks that we have to overbuild but that's what it Takes. A jewelry store doesn't want 2 lights. And I don't want wires wrapped especially when we agreed you would Backwire.

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Ok, the work in the pictures looks pretty bad, but that had nothing to do w/your op about wrapping stranded. And I still stand by whatt I said earlier about 110.3(B).

You are upset about a bad installation. The argument that a method should be banned b/c of poor installation practices kind of puts the cart b4 the horse imo and only opens the rabbit hole......

Lots of us don't like things- I hate backstabbed (not compression plate style, talking about the cheap #14 solid backstab devices) connections. But irregardless of whatever opinion I have, the fact is is that those devices are still listed, and its a fact that the overwhelming vast majority of backstabbed devices will not cause a fire and if that is what is spec'd, they get put in.

Should we add any additional mounting rules (beyond whats already in the NEC) too b/c the guy set those in the pic too far? Mandate receptacles with goofy compression plates that will only accept one conductor per terminal b/c the guy left those unneeded tails? If we made it a habit of banning a practice or equipment everytime we saw something not done correctly, there would no electrical work left to do, b/c there would nothing left to install or fix.

I will say to the dudes credit that loose strands don't look like they would be a problem since it appears he taped the sides of the device....:D:p
 
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Ok, the work in the pictures looks pretty bad, but that had nothing to do w/your op about wrapping stranded. And I still stand by whatt I said earlier about 110.3(B).

You are upset about a bad installation. The argument that a method should be banned b/c of poor installation practices kind of puts the cart b4 the horse imo and only opens the rabbit hole......

Lots of us don't like things- I hate backstabbed (not compression plate style, talking about the cheap #14 solid backstab devices) connections. But irregardless of whatever opinion I have, the fact is is that those devices are still listed, and its a fact that the overwhelming vast majority of backstabbed devices will not cause a fire and if that is what is spec'd, they get put in.

Should we add any additional mounting rules too b/c the guy set those in the pic too far? Mandate receptacles with goofy compression plates that will only accept one conductor per terminal b/c the guy left those unneeded tails? If we made it a habit of banning a practice or equipment everytime we saw something not done correctly, there would no electrical work left to do, b/c there would nothing left to install or fix.

I will say to the dudes credit that loose strands don't look like they would be a problem since it appears he taped the sides of the device....:D:p
The loose strands aren't a problem BC they are going to touch the box. They are a problem because they are not making a connection underneath screw. This means less than 100℅ of the wire makes contact. I never said the practice should be banned. I just want ammo to show why it's substandard for the location and intended use. Code does require all instructions be followed AND the correct materials and techniques be used for the type of location and the intended use. Lots of things like that written in the NEC. I bet my inspector will side with me he a real stickler for details, so it sound like you guys helped me find my answer.

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user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
The loose strands aren't a problem BC they are going to touch the box. They are a problem because they are not making a connection underneath screw. This means less than 100℅ of the wire makes contact. I never said the practice should be banned. I just want ammo to show why it's substandard for the location and intended use. Code does require all instructions be followed AND the correct materials and techniques be used for the type of location and the intended use. Lots of things like that written in the NEC. I bet my inspector will side with me he a real stickler for details, so it sound like you guys helped me find my answer.

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A bigger hit imo would be the crappy install on the boxes (see 314.20), and those tails ...... he could and should be failed for those 2 alone.

And you are right about saying that you didn't want it banned-in my post I meant discouraged/banned.
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I terminate stranded wire all the time just like the picture. I don't see any strands sticking out and I don't see a problem.

I see done like that from time to time. typically the electrician pulls the insulation over the stranded copper about a 1/4 inch or so to keep it from from fraying. Not my style (although I have done on occasion for that reason mentioned above) but I don't have a problem with it either.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
it's not the right device to use it's a cheap hat trick and Hubbel just makes they product sound good by getting UL to list it for stranded when they clearly have models more suited to the wire!
Check out Leviton, P&S, Cooper, etc... you will see some of their devices are listed the same way.

As the others have stated there is nothing wrong with the method but, execution is another story and from your description it seems as though that is the problem.

Roger
 
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