14 tied to 12 on 20 amp breaker

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acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Thats like a job I did I a county I dont usually work in , I change out a damaged meter base . Every other county around here requires the service to have to ground rods if you repair an existing service . The ahj came early and did not have the rods in yet but they were laying on the ground , I told him I had everything but the ground rods finished . He said you dont need that , I see it allready has a ground rod , I said thats a 3/4 in pipe and the house has plastic water lines . He said well its worked all these years hasnt it :roll:

You have to wonder what he did before he was an inspector. Maybe lead paint taste tester.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
210.19 deals with min. branch circuit ratings, branch circuit are rated in accordance to the overcurrent protection rating the exception deals with tap conductors being protected by the branch circuit overcurrent device. You know all that.

What I do not understand how are you ignoring the definition for branch circuits or more accurately taps and trying to define branch circuit ratings as a tap.

Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.

I have been trying to say that but not that clearly.

...
Section header is...
210.19 Conductors — Minimum Ampacity and Size.
Show me where in 210.19 that #14 is prohibited from carrying a 20A calculated load (i.e. 100% of non-continuous plus 125% of continuous)? To save you time, you will find none.

Section 210.20 deals with overcurrent protection. In and of itself, there is no direct prohibition of a #14 connected to a 20A ocpd. Indirectly, one is sent to 240.4 by way of 210.20(B) [flexible cords and fixture wires have been omitted from this discussion, but we can include them later if you want].

240.4(D)(3) says 14 AWG copper must be protected at not more than 15A ocpd... except when specifically permitted to exceed this ocpd value under 240.4(E) regarding tap conductors, and 240.4(E)(1) says all we have to do is meet the conductor sizing requirements of 210.19(A)(3) & (4). We have already qualified #14 for a 20A calculated load as meeting the requirements of 210.19.

Additionally, a #14 meets the definition of a tap conductor because the 20A ocpd "ahead of its point of supply... exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4", which according to 240.4(D)(3) is a 15A-rated ocpd.
 
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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
240.4(D)(3) says 14 AWG copper must be protected at not more than 15A ocpd... except when specifically permitted to exceed this ocpd value under 240.4(E) regarding tap conductors, and 240.4(E)(1) says all we have to do is meet the conductor sizing requirements of 210.19(A)(3) & (4). We have already qualified #14 for a 20A calculated load as meeting the requirements of 210.19.

Just so I am on the same page here let me summarize this so far.
First we look at 240.4(E) which references 210.19 (A)(3)&(4)

Now we are going to debate if there is anything in these three code sections that would allow a tap to a 20 amp circuit with a #14 conductor.

Without using the exceptions the answer would be No this could not happen.

The reference found in 240.4(E) to 210.19 (A)(3)&(4) includes the exceptions found under each section and it is these exceptions that allow the tap. There is no mention of a tap in the main body of either 210.19(A)(3) or 210.19(A)(4).
The permission to either of these two sections for a tap is covered in the exception and as outlined in the exceptions only. The main text makes no mention at all about taps as I can find.

It also clearly states that receptacles are not part of this permission to tap
Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.

So I now ask where in 210 anywhere it says that #14 can be protected by a 20 overcurrent device except for lights, infrared lamp industrial heating appliances, and deicing and snow-melting cables and mats along with other things mentioned in the exceptions. Even with these certain criteria must be met.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Section header is...
Show me where in 210.19 that #14 is prohibited from carrying a 20A calculated load (i.e. 100% of non-continuous plus 125% of continuous)? To save you time, you will find none.

Section 210.20 deals with overcurrent protection. In and of itself, there is no direct prohibition of a #14 connected to a 20A ocpd. Indirectly, one is sent to 240.4 by way of 210.20(B) [flexible cords and fixture wires have been omitted from this discussion, but we can include them later if you want].

240.4(D)(3) says 14 AWG copper must be protected at not more than 15A ocpd... except when specifically permitted to exceed this ocpd value under 240.4(E) regarding tap conductors, and 240.4(E)(1) says all we have to do is meet the conductor sizing requirements of 210.19(A)(3) & (4). We have already qualified #14 for a 20A calculated load as meeting the requirements of 210.19.

Additionally, a #14 meets the definition of a tap conductor because the 20A ocpd "ahead of its point of supply... exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4", which according to 240.4(D)(3) is a 15A-rated ocpd.

I think where we disagree is that 240.4(E)(1) does not apply to a general lighting circuit.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I think where we disagree is that 240.4(E)(1) does not apply to a general lighting circuit.

240.4(E)(1) does not address general lighting circuit but the referral to 210.19(A)(4) does in the exception. Here we can have general lighting circuit taps up to 18 inches beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire, from a flush or recessed luminaire terminal connection to an outlet box placed at least 1 ft. from the luminaire, or a fixture wires.

I think what you are saying is that neither of these sections gives permission to tap a general lighting circuit that is protected by a 20 amp overcurrent device with a #14 to wire a switch or something different than mentioned in the exception.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
240.4(E)(1) does not address general lighting circuit but the referral to 210.19(A)(4) does in the exception. Here we can have general lighting circuit taps up to 18 inches beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire, from a flush or recessed luminaire terminal connection to an outlet box placed at least 1 ft. from the luminaire, or a fixture wires.

I think what you are saying is that neither of these sections gives permission to tap a general lighting circuit that is protected by a 20 amp overcurrent device with a #14 to wire a switch or something different than mentioned in the exception.

Thought I said that in an earlier post but it does not matter. Yes we agree.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
You probably did as I didn?t read every post.
Since I'm not going to respond to each of yours and the other Mike's posts, I'll just jump in here...

You two seem to believe that only the Exceptions to 210.19(A)(3) & (4) apply to tap conductors. I'll agree that 240.4(D)(3) says "unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E)"... but 240.4(E)(1) does not say as specifically permitted. It just says "shall be permitted".

Let's see how you guys think...

Is a service tap conductor a service, feeder, or branch-circuit conductor?

Is a feeder tap conductor a service, feeder, or branch-circuit conductor?

Is a branch-circuit tap conductor a service, feeder, or branch-circuit conductor?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Neither it is a tap

Neither it is a tap


Neither it is a tap


What say you?
They are all still conductors under their respective Articles: service, feeder, and branch-circuit.

210.19(A)(3) & (4) Exceptions still fall under....
ARTICLE 210
Branch Circuits

II. Branch-Circuit Ratings

210.19 Conductors — Minimum Ampacity and Size.
Branch-circuit tap conductors are still branch-circuit conductors. How does the general provision under 210.19(A)(4) begin? "Branch-circuit conductors..." It does not say branch-circuit conductors except branch-circuit tap conductors.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
They are all still conductors under their respective Articles: service, feeder, and branch-circuit.

210.19(A)(3) & (4) Exceptions still fall under....Branch-circuit tap conductors are still branch-circuit conductors. How does the general provision under 210.19(A)(4) begin? "Branch-circuit conductors..." It does not say branch-circuit conductors except branch-circuit tap conductors.


Well if you want to get down to the nitty gritty I suppose that the three Taps would be defined as follows:

Service tap would be found in 230.83
Feeder taps would be found in 240.21 unless we are talking about particular taps such as motor feeder taps as found in 430.28 and 430.53 and so forth
Branch circuit taps would be found in 210.19(A)(3) Exceptions and 210.19(A)(4) exceptions

At any rate once it has made a tap it is a tap conductor. Now if it pleases your heart to call them Service-tap, Feeder-tap, and Branch Circuit-tap it wouldn?t hurt my feelings but they aint service, feeder, nor branch circuits conductors or there would be no need for this discussion. They are just as we (me and you) having calling them through out this thread, ?tap conductors? and as will be seen in the above mentioned code sections the NEC calls them ?tap conductors?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I have to ask, what is a 'service tap' to the NEC?

A service conductor? Maybe :-?


230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service Disconnect.
Only the following equipment shall be permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service disconnecting means:
(5) Taps used only to supply load management devices, circuits for standby power systems, fire pump equipment, and fire and sprinkler alarms, if provided with service equipment and installed in accordance with requirements for service-entrance conductors.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
They are all still conductors under their respective Articles: service, feeder, and branch-circuit.

210.19(A)(3) & (4) Exceptions still fall under....
Branch-circuit tap conductors are still branch-circuit conductors. How does the general provision under 210.19(A)(4) begin? "Branch-circuit conductors..." It does not say branch-circuit conductors except branch-circuit tap conductors.

100. Branch Circuit. "The ******outlets".
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
100. Branch Circuit. "The ******outlets".
I know you're quoting, but for the sake of all reading this discussion, the entirety of that quote is....
Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final
overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).
So is a branch-circuit tap conductor a branch-circuit conductor?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Wouldn't the load end of the #14 have to land on a 15a OCPD to be considered a tap?
Only if your tap conductor qualifies through 240.21 by way of 240.4(E)(3). But in my books is a misnomer. Once you put ocpd on the load end of the tap conductor, the original branch circuit becomes a feeder circuit :confused:

However, qualifying through 240.4(E)(1) doesn't send you to 240.21, thus load-end ocpd appears to not be required, by my interpretation :)roll: for all you naysayers).
 
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