easement across public property

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I have an odd situation dealing with a utility and a new overhead service I am trying to get connected. My first thought is this utility rep is off base. The location is an industrial area, overhead lines along the street, on the the same side as clients property. I am not exactly sure where the property line is, but probably somewhere around 10 feet away from the pole. Basically completely normal situation. The utility rep is saying the city may not allow an overhead service. He said, "permitting is checking withe the city to see if they will allow an overhead service in their right of way."

Now I could see maybe if this was an area where electrical infrastructure was all underground, or a line extension, but its not. Furthermore, since when does a utility have to get an easement from a municipality to work on/serve someone from their system? Isnt that why we have things set up the way they are for ease of service for everyone? Has anyone heard of anything like this?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I experience a variation of this easement issue, and have for decades. And it's only gotten stronger in the effect it creates of increasing the amount of time the bureaucracy requires before anything is approved.

From time to time, I will be hired to facilitate the "undergrounding" of an existing overhead occupancy electrical service. This will be, with rare exception, in an overhead power company distribution area of the inner City. The existing poles and transformers are at the alley inside the block, and, generally, the occupancy has had an aerial drop to it since it was first electrified.

If the new underground service lateral has to cross under the alley, and the City's right of way, even though it's not a new service and is connected to the same pole the overhead attached to, the permission from the City will take weeks additional.

Every single time.
 
I experience a variation of this easement issue, and have for decades. And it's only gotten stronger in the effect it creates of increasing the amount of time the bureaucracy requires before anything is approved.

From time to time, I will be hired to facilitate the "undergrounding" of an existing overhead occupancy electrical service. This will be, with rare exception, in an overhead power company distribution area of the inner City. The existing poles and transformers are at the alley inside the block, and, generally, the occupancy has had an aerial drop to it since it was first electrified.

If the new underground service lateral has to cross under the alley, and the City's right of way, even though it's not a new service and is connected to the same pole the overhead attached to, the permission from the City will take weeks additional.

Every single time.

I can see the case of having to dig up a street, sidewalk, or alley as it makes sense the municipality would need/want to deal with making the repairs to the infrastructure or assuring public property is repaired properly. Perhaps there is traffic issues they need to manage.....

What I am not buying is the term, and you used it too, "city's right of way". I would think a street or alley is public property not a right of way. Now I dont know the specific legal definition or process by which an electric utility gets to install poles along a street, but I imagine it is rather broad so as to not require city permission for a simple modification or new service.
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
Here in DTE land, they put us on notice a couple years back that all services, including existing aerial, were being placed underground with any modification, relocation or addition. At the customers expense.

Existing easements for poles and aerial drops, are different than underground easements on private property. I don't do many services, but the few that I have, the underground must follow the lot line, till it gets at right angles with the structure. And needs to be plotted on their service maps. The process wasn't that painful, as they had staff in place to make it happen, but does take lead time.

MTW
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I would think a street or alley is public property not a right of way.
I think its both.

My experience is with a corporate electric utility, maybe yours is public? The corporate electric utility is given easement for use of public property.

The local Telco in my area had a build out of new fiber optic to the occupancy. The lines that supply the blocks just across the street from me transition from underground to aerial and the aerial runs along the side of my property on PoCo poles (alley secondary to street light). The aerial fiber optic continues on across the street from the street light pole and on to the next block's alley.

The out-of-state line crew that did the build out shared with me that the street crossing and the span on down to the next block's alley was "aerial trespass."

The Telco is also a corporate, not public, entity.

My point is that the non-public utilities are given use of public land by a lot of legal-ese.
 
I think its both.

My experience is with a corporate electric utility, maybe yours is public? The corporate electric utility is given easement for use of public property.

Yeah, but I think it is generally very broad in the state laws and the utility can set poles where ever they want along public roads without approval or a new easement. Of course, Im sure it varies from state to state. I have just never heard of a utility getting an easement from the town/city for a service drop.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
The utility rep is saying the city may not allow an overhead service. He said, "permitting is checking with the city to see if they will allow an overhead service in their right of way."

I have just never heard of a utility getting an easement from the town/city for a service drop.


That's why I like to talk to someone from the power company before I start almost any job where they will be involved.

Sure you may never have herd about it but there is not much you can do about it either.

One of the linemen from a local power company said the only thing that you could be sure of was change. Seems that utility makes up new rules all the time.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
There are some places around here where you can only put in utilities underground.

One of the places is adjacent to some kind of wetland or flood plain or something where the utility easement is located. You have to actually get some kind of permit from the Army Corp of Engineers just to put a trench in there.
 
That's why I like to talk to someone from the power company before I start almost any job where they will be involved.

Sure you may never have herd about it but there is not much you can do about it either.

One of the linemen from a local power company said the only thing that you could be sure of was change. Seems that utility makes up new rules all the time.

Yeah, Ill be real annoyed if there is an issue with this as I did go over it with POCO first. Submitted application, answered a few questions, was given a price. Told to get it inspected then call them for hookup. Now all this :rant:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Easement from my understanding is nothing more then giving them the right to enter property to operate/maintain their equipment. This can mean it gives them the right to use excavating means if their equipment is buried or to use aerial lifts for overhead equipment. It will usually only give them so many feet from the utility that they are guaranteed access to though, and can vary depending on the utility type and possible future needs to operate or maintain it.

There are high voltage transmission lines crossing private property all over the place. The owners of those have easements to enter the property in order to maintain their equipment. In an emergency they may suddenly come onto property to do what is necessary. Scheduled maintenance they are usually good at working with owners to not disturb owners use of the property as much as possible.

What I am used to seeing is for a utility line that only supplies an individual user - the easement is part of their contract to provide service.

When you have a line running across a property that serves more then just that property - that is where you run into easements that need to be noted on the title, which is more of a process to get done.

Lines along the street or alley - could be some variances in some places but often they are either outside property lines or right on them, and may come with an automatic easement of so many feet from the line, but once it enters the property needs noted on title unless it only serves the individual property.
 
Easement from my understanding is nothing more then giving them the right to enter property to operate/maintain their equipment. This can mean it gives them the right to use excavating means if their equipment is buried or to use aerial lifts for overhead equipment. It will usually only give them so many feet from the utility that they are guaranteed access to though, and can vary depending on the utility type and possible future needs to operate or maintain it.

There are high voltage transmission lines crossing private property all over the place. The owners of those have easements to enter the property in order to maintain their equipment. In an emergency they may suddenly come onto property to do what is necessary. Scheduled maintenance they are usually good at working with owners to not disturb owners use of the property as much as possible.

What I am used to seeing is for a utility line that only supplies an individual user - the easement is part of their contract to provide service.

When you have a line running across a property that serves more then just that property - that is where you run into easements that need to be noted on the title, which is more of a process to get done.

Lines along the street or alley - could be some variances in some places but often they are either outside property lines or right on them, and may come with an automatic easement of so many feet from the line, but once it enters the property needs noted on title unless it only serves the individual property.

Just to be clear, the utility guy was talking about an easement from the city, not an easement from my client for his property.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
One of the places is adjacent to some kind of wetland or flood plain or something where the utility easement is located. You have to actually get some kind of permit from the Army Corp of Engineers just to put a trench in there.

Dealing with an inland waterway and the corp of engineers can be fun and kind of dangerous. Here you need the correct certifications (errosion). And you have to follow all rules to contain the dig and make sure that none of the dirt ever reaches the waterway. They have some serious fines.

Just digging that little trench may be a bigger problem than many would think.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Yeah, Ill be real annoyed if there is an issue with this as I did go over it with POCO first. Submitted application, answered a few questions, was given a price. Told to get it inspected then call them for hookup. Now all this :rant:

It certainly sounds like they should have told you early on if they were going to have any problems.

Many people think that being an EC should be easy but you never know what you may have to deal with on some jobs to get them completed.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
At least you’re not on your own. Over here they are called “way leaves”, with the same legal minefield.

I installed a new 11kV feed to a transformer, simple enough you may think. It took our lads two weeks to get the switchgear and cable in. It took the DNO (PoCo) three months to get the way leave and another two months to install their gear.

After this episode I hung up my tool belt and retired.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just to be clear, the utility guy was talking about an easement from the city, not an easement from my client for his property.
Well don't they have that issue pretty much any time they run a new line??

I though you said the existing line they are coming off of is on same side of street as customer. It is probably about right on the property line or within maybe 5 feet . It likely also has so many feet of existing easement on either side - which likely goes all the way to or even beyond property line. A drop that is perpendicular to existing line is probably not a problem to add and once it is on private property not a city easement issue anymore. If it has to cross the street - I can see needing easement from city, state, county - whichever entity is responsible for the street.
 
Well don't they have that issue pretty much any time they run a new line??

I though you said the existing line they are coming off of is on same side of street as customer. It is probably about right on the property line or within maybe 5 feet . It likely also has so many feet of existing easement on either side - which likely goes all the way to or even beyond property line. A drop that is perpendicular to existing line is probably not a problem to add and once it is on private property not a city easement issue anymore. If it has to cross the street - I can see needing easement from city, state, county - whichever entity is responsible for the street.

So in your area the utility has to get a easement from the city/town/county for a new service drop off their existing lines?
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
a governmental body (state, city, township, etc) own the road
and so much on either side
they allow public use
eg to tie a parking lot into one you need a highway occupancy permit and meet their design standards

does the line cross sidewalks?

things like oh service are 'permitted by rule' generally in PA
meaning if installed per the plans the util have approved by the puc you can just do it

it's different in different areas

did you drive up/down the road to see how others did it?
 
a governmental body (state, city, township, etc) own the road
and so much on either side
they allow public use
eg to tie a parking lot into one you need a highway occupancy permit and meet their design standards

does the line cross sidewalks?

things like oh service are 'permitted by rule' generally in PA
meaning if installed per the plans the util have approved by the puc you can just do it

it's different in different areas

did you drive up/down the road to see how others did it?

No it does not cross a sidewalk. I havent really looked to see what other services are like. I highly doubt this area has a prohibition again OH service drops. It passed inspection, although in this area electrical is handled my the state not the city. Hopefully I'll get an answer soon. I'll keep y'all posted.
 
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