Engineering know-it-alls

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I would like to preface this with the fact that I appreciate any true professional.

That being said, I am working on a project with a design firm which is not familiar with their own project and refuses to acknowledge any errors.:rant::rant::rant:

And so... here is what is going on...

I'm working on a new pump booster station which has a Heat Pump Unit located on the exterior. The approved engineered design (our local building dept is inept) does not have a disconnect within sight or a service receptacle within 25'. They also have a 1/6 hp exhaust fan with no disconnect other than the breaker, which is not within sight.

I contacted the engineers regarding the above items and was told everything was approved and the design was correct. I contacted them a 2nd time with the same response.

I installed the above items anyways as it will not be easy to provide them later.

I don't even really care about additional $ for the extras, what irks me was the condescending attitude from a 30 year old engineer.

My intention is to sit around for the inspector and tell him the engineers tried to slip some things past the building department but since I figured he would catch them anyways (which he wouldn't) I would point them out. :angel:

Is this too juvenile? Like I said, I am installing the items either way. I just would like too see the engineer eat crow after completely ignoring my input. Twice.:p

Am I missing something? Code references? Comments? Thanks!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I would have brought it up and if told not to worry about it I would have stopped worrying about it no matter how hard it might be later to fix.
 

flyboy

Member
Location
Planet Earth
How did you "contact them"? Was it in writing? I would have written a letter to the engineer pointing out the code violations, complete with code references, then mailed (certified) copies along with a cover letter to the architect, GC and maybe even the owner expressing my concerns.
 
The project is for my home town, population ~500. The GC lives across the street from me. There are liquidated damages of $1k/day for late completion and he wants to keep things rolling quickly. I am very careful in picking my battles. The money for a change order is hardly worth the paperwork. I emailed the engineering firm and have documented their responses. The 2nd time I emailed them I included specific code references.

They haven't been called on any of these items in the past (in other small, under-trained jurisdictions), and see my efforts for code compliance as an intrusive inconvenience. On the other hand, it is my friends and neighbors who will be servicing the equipment & I care that it is done right. It isn't about money on this one.

I really just wanted to blow a bit of steam and see if anyone knew of an exception to the above items in case I missed something. Thanks again.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I usually see them specify things that are not absolutely necessary to meet code minimums, but that is their decision to design things as they see fit, with code minimums as a baseline.

I don't see how this person can design this to less than code minimums. If bidding I would want to address this as a problem before bidding. If for some reason the problem was not caught until installation I would still comply with code as I know I will have to change it if I don't. Inspectors here will catch these problems almost every time.
 

__dan

Senior Member
Approach the building official first, discuss the changes, and ask for a letter from him requiring the changes to meet code. This is your leverage to get paid for the changes and the AHJ should be sympathetic to your need to get paid. If you are the local guy, you are bringing money into the town. Changes installed before approval will be easy for the engineer to ignore. Changes needed to comply with the AHJ requirement letter will be easy to approve.

Engineer is defined in the law as someone who has a PE license. If you do not like the attitude or the results from your contact person, look up the person's license with the State to see if you are communicating with a licensed engineer or an unlicensed person. If no license, cc the license holder in your emails. Liability attaches to the license.

Forget about the future crow dinner and focus the effort on the future incoming check. If the invoice does not cover the paperwork and the running around, double or triple the number and let them chase you instead of you chasing them. They always have the option of hiring someone else to install the changes. You need permission to work on the customer's property.
 

BJ Conner

Senior Member
Location
97006
CSI Specs

CSI Specs

Read the specifications.
The specs that I have no use for are the CSI ( Construction Specification Institute ) canned specs. The come in Word and have sections you can edit as fast as you can run a mouse. A smarter than averag chimpanze can write the specs for a whole job in a couple of hours. They are weasel words that transfer responsibiltiy for everything from the engineer to the contractor.
They usually have a sections that says something like " The contractor shall install all components and systems in compliance with all applicable codes, standards and local regulations"
Then they give you hirarchey of documents which says specifications take presidence over drawings.
On a job like yours they would say "the spec says you have to build it to the code, put in the disconnect- you should have caught it when you bid the job."
It's a cheap trick, the engineer never makes a mistake and is never responsible for a cost change order.
As an engineer I don't work with people who use the CSI canned specs. It's very unprofessional. :rant:
 
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Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Read the specifications.
The specs that I have no use for are the CSI ( Construction Specification Institute ) canned specs. The come in Word and have sections you can edit as fast as you can run a mouse. A smarter than averag chimpanze can write the specs for a whole job in a couple of hours. They are weasel words that transfer responsibiltiy for everything from the engineer to the contractor.
They usually have a sections that says something like " The contractor shall install all components and systems in compliance with all applicable codes, standards and local regulations"
Then they give you hirarchey of documents which says specifications take presidence over drawings.
On a job like yours they would say "the spec says you have to build it to the code, put in the disconnect- you should have caught it when you bid the job."
It's a cheap trick, the engineer never makes a mistake and is never responsible for a cost change order.
As an engineer I don't work with people who use the CSI canned specs. It's very unprofessional. :rant:

The few Real jobs I have worked all had similiar clauses that make you, as the sub, responsible. Some also specd fixtures that had not been made for years.

I once was asked when we were going to install wiring for the controls to a well house project. No mention of that portion anywhere in the specs or contract and the items involved were supplied by other subs. Someone paid for that error and the omission was corrected in the next projects specs.
 

cdslotz

Senior Member
Yep. The specs have ultimate say in these issues. Somewhere in the specs it says the contractor is responsible, whether it is drawn or not.
Let me ask you this, who was the estimator that failed to include the disconnects? The engineer's spec will spell out what mechanical equipment comes with factory furnished starters/disconnects/VFDs, etc.
I have to pour through those specs on every job I bid and if they don't specify factory furnished, I add them to my bid. Sometimes I call a bidding mechanical contractor to see what he is furnishing in regard to starters, etc.

It's a battle you will lose
 

defears

Senior Member
Location
NJ
You are lucky that's all that was wrong. It is up to you to install to the code, and don't eat it next time.

I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen a set of plans from any engineer that was NEC correct. And apparently, no plan check. Most plans around me belong in the porta-john. I STILL get plans with the EM lights on separate circuits, instead of on with the area lighting. That changed like 10 years ago!
 

JWCELECTRIC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I would say that it would be a CO to install the recptacle and disconnect switch. You could use 430.102.B. Exception 2. The other argument that I see is you install all items on the drawings per NEC, probably how it is written in specs. If it's not on the drawings how can you install per code. Otherwise the 30 yr old engineer could put a big note on his his first and only drawing "Install all items per code as shown on other drawings" and call it a day.

The town probably figures you made a profit on this project and thay are looking for you to take care of this small item. Put it your back pocket for next project unless you don't think they will call you back.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen a set of plans from any engineer that was NEC correct.
Which tells me that you have never seen a set of plans that I had issued.
I STILL get plans with the EM lights on separate circuits, instead of on with the area lighting. That changed like 10 years ago!
I don't understand this comment, especially in light of your "NEC correct" comment. The NEC does not forbid me to put EM lights on separate circuits. What exactly do you mean by saying something changed 10 years ago?

 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
The NEC does not forbid me to put EM lights on separate circuits.


That's true, but you'd better have 3 or more lighting circuits in a seperate and uninterrupted area
if you're going to put them on their own circuit.
2008 NEC 701-11 (G) exception
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
We are not talking about the same thing, which is why I said I did not understand the earlier comment. I very seldom use "unit equipment" for egress lights. And just to help with clarifying this discussion, let us use the phrase "egress lights," and not "emergency lights." I generally put a panel downstream of the emergency ATS (as in article 700, not 701), to serve egress lights. If it is a multi-story building, I will put such a panel on every other floor. That is what I mean by saying these lights are on separate circuits. Indeed, they are on separate panels.

So now, what was meant by the comment that "I still get plans with EM lights on separate circuits"?
 
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