re: NEC 2011 flexible cords above dropped ceilings

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Bill-50

Member
Location
Houston, TX
re: NEC 2011 flexible cords above dropped ceilings

from the latest 2011 Q&A e-mail:
Q4. Does the Code allow the installation of cord-connected equipment above a suspended ceiling?
A4. Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords must not be concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings, or located above suspended or dropped ceilings [400.8(5)].
Comments::
? Flexible cords are permitted under a raised floor (with removable panels) used for environmental air, because this area isn?t considered a concealed space. See the definition of ?Exposed? in Article 100.
? Receptacles are permitted above a suspended ceiling, but a flexible cord isn?t. Why install a receptacle above a ceiling if the flexible cord isn?t permitted in this space? Because the receptacle can be used for portable tools; it just can?t be used for cord-and-plug-connected equipment fastened in place, such as a projector.

Question: What if the above ceiling area is NOT a plenum? The areas in question have both supply and return ducts and some devices can go no where else.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
400.7 does not take into account plenum/non-plenum.
Cords above a suspended ceiling are a violation.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree with Gus. The NEC makes no exception for non plenum ceilings. I believe the reason is that the cord cannot be inspected easily when left in the ceiling.
 

dkidd

Senior Member
Location
here
Occupation
PE
I found this ROP. Please read the discussion. I don't really understand what they mean in the Panel Statement. They say that there are provisions.


6-158 Log #652 NEC-P06 Final Action: Reject
(400.8(5) Exception (New) )
__________________________________________________ _____________
Submitter: Ron L. Janikowski, City of Wausau, Wisconsin / Rep. CMP16
Special Editorial Task Group
Recommendation: Add new Exception to read as follows:
Exception to (5). Flexible cord as part of an assembly not exceeding 6 ft in
length shall be permitted above suspended or dropped ceilings, provided the
space above the ceiling is not in conflict with 300.22.
Substantiation: Security cameras, fire detection and other equipment that is
shipped with molded cord assemblies cannot be installed under current code
rules. I think short pieces of cord, part of a listed assembly should be allowed. I
think a greater problem exists when the contractor tries to hand wire the
equipment.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The substantiation states that some equipment cannot be
installed under current code rules. There are currently provisions in the code
that address this issue and allow installation of cords above suspended ceilings.
The authority having jurisdiction could ultimately allow permission for these
types of installations based on 400.7(A)(3).
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
 

elohr46

Senior Member
Location
square one
I found this ROP. Please read the discussion. I don't really understand what they mean in the Panel Statement. They say that there are provisions.


6-158 Log #652 NEC-P06 Final Action: Reject
(400.8(5) Exception (New) )
__________________________________________________ _____________
Submitter: Ron L. Janikowski, City of Wausau, Wisconsin / Rep. CMP16
Special Editorial Task Group
Recommendation: Add new Exception to read as follows:
Exception to (5). Flexible cord as part of an assembly not exceeding 6 ft in
length shall be permitted above suspended or dropped ceilings, provided the
space above the ceiling is not in conflict with 300.22.
Substantiation: Security cameras, fire detection and other equipment that is
shipped with molded cord assemblies cannot be installed under current code
rules. I think short pieces of cord, part of a listed assembly should be allowed. I
think a greater problem exists when the contractor tries to hand wire the
equipment.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The substantiation states that some equipment cannot be
installed under current code rules. There are currently provisions in the code
that address this issue and allow installation of cords above suspended ceilings.
The authority having jurisdiction could ultimately allow permission for these
types of installations based on 400.7(A)(3).
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

Apparently cords are allowed above a dropped ceiling if the AHJ wants to allow it.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Apparently cords are allowed above a dropped ceiling if the AHJ wants to allow it.

Pretty much. I have read that ROP more than a few times.

My take:

Start here

400.8 Uses Not Permitted. Unless specifically permitted
in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
following:

Okay we move to this

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for
the following:
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile signs, or appliances


Wait a minute: Does that comma signify an independent clause?
Is appliances attached to "portable and mobile" in the clause next to it or is it independent?
Why "or" instead of "and"?
Why no adjective like the other two items?

An AHJ could interpret this as "Connection of appliances" as an independent clause.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Question: What if the above ceiling area is NOT a plenum? The areas in question have both supply and return ducts and some devices can go no where else.

The correct term for the area above a suspended ceiling is other space used for enviromental air, if used for return air. The plenum is the area inside the ductwork. Electrical wiring inside ducts (plenums) is very restricted as to when and how.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Pretty much. I have read that ROP more than a few times.

My take:

Start here

400.8 Uses Not Permitted. Unless specifically permitted
in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
following:

Okay we move to this

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for
the following:
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile signs, or appliances


Wait a minute: Does that comma signify an independent clause?
Is appliances attached to "portable and mobile" in the clause next to it or is it independent?
Why "or" instead of "and"?
Why no adjective like the other two items?

An AHJ could interpret this as "Connection of appliances" as an independent clause.

Hmmm.....not one comment. Interesting.

Neither yae, nae, or you are off rocker.................:?
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Hmmm.....not one comment. Interesting.

Neither yae, nae, or you are off rocker.................:?

I think it has been beaten to death. IMHO the code panel has the right of it. No it can't be used above drop ceilings unless it is permitted by 400.7

So I know most inspectors disagree but IMHO if it is listed as acceptable in 400.7(A) it can be allowed in the places 400.8 says it is not.

Just MHO
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Part of the problem I see is not only the interpretation of the section you highlighted, but, if we accept "appliances" are permitted, then we have to argue the definition of an "appliance".
When a majority of folks think appliance, its probably not something you see above a suspended ceiling.
So once you convinced me it is permissible to have an appliance with cord above the ceiling, I'm willing to accept that stove or refrigerator you have there :D
 

jumper

Senior Member
Part of the problem I see is not only the interpretation of the section you highlighted, but, if we accept "appliances" are permitted, then we have to argue the definition of an "appliance".
When a majority of folks think appliance, its probably not something you see above a suspended ceiling.
So once you convinced me it is permissible to have an appliance with cord above the ceiling, I'm willing to accept that stove or refrigerator you have there :D

As written and generally agreed, cords above a suspended ceiling are a violation. I have no problem with this.

The panel statement and code wording allow an AHJ, not electrician or inspector, to make allowances.
It ain't gonna happen, but the wording is there.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
As written and generally agreed, cords above a suspended ceiling are a violation. I have no problem with this.

The panel statement and code wording allow an AHJ, not electrician or inspector, to make allowances.
It ain't gonna happen, but the wording is there.

If that your thinking what does this mean and why is it there? "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..."
It sounds like you think it says "unless approved by AHJ"... but that is not what it says.
 

jumper

Senior Member
If that your thinking what does this mean and why is it there? "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..."
It sounds like you think it says "unless approved by AHJ"... but that is not what it says.

What I think is that the CMP should not make a wiffle/waffle statement like they did.

Either say it is legal or not. I see no clarity in that ROP statement.
 
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