Swimming pool bonding

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Above ground pool dimensions are approx. 40'x20' and the whole pool is aluminum.
Nothing in the back yard but the pool, pool equipment, and shed(10'+ away)
All grass, no concrete
2008 NEC
Smyrna, De

* My solid #8 copper bonding conductor, does it have to circle the the base of the pool and the platform or am I just misinterpreting 680.26 (B)(1)(b) wrong??
* 680.26(B)(2) that only applies if I had some conductive material within 3', correct?
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Above ground pool dimensions are approx. 40'x20' and the whole pool is aluminum.
Nothing in the back yard but the pool, pool equipment, and shed(10'+ away)
All grass, no concrete
2008 NEC
Smyrna, De

* My solid #8 copper bonding conductor, does it have to circle the the base of the pool and the platform or am I just misinterpreting 680.26 (B)(1)(b) wrong??
* 680.26(B)(2) that only applies if I had some conductive material within 3', correct?

If the pool is an above ground pool and is not deeper than 42" then you do not need to follow 680.26 just part I & III. No bonding is required.
Also 680.26(B)(2)(B) applies even if there is no conductive material but it does not apply in your case.
 

malachi constant

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Location
Minneapolis
If the pool is an above ground pool and is not deeper than 42" then you do not need to follow 680.26 just part I & III. No bonding is required.
Also 680.26(B)(2)(B) applies even if there is no conductive material but it does not apply in your case.

Dennis, where do you get the exception to not follow 680.26? I believe you that it's there, but I don't see it.

I ask because I'm trying to figure out which parts of the code to follow for a splash pad. Splash pad is on grade, holds no water, has a 24V DC foot actuator in the middle of it, recirc system and controls back in the building. The code doesn't seem to recognize splash pads, hence doesn't require anything. But I think that is because of the relative "newness" of splash pads, so still want to put a good faith effort into getting a safe system in place.
 

malachi constant

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis
Yeah, see that now.

I'm in a quandry with the splash pad. Definition of "pool" is "...designed to contain water on a permanent or semi-permanent basis and used for swimming, wading, immersion or theraputic purposes". You would have a hard time convincing anyone that (a) a splash pad holds water, and (b) it is used for swimming, wading, immersion, etc. The pad is used for playing on. Not swimming - there's no standing water. Not wading - there's no standing water. Not immersion - there's no standing water. Not therapeutic - this isn't for health, it's a "wet playground" for kids.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Yeah, see that now.

I'm in a quandry with the splash pad. Definition of "pool" is "...designed to contain water on a permanent or semi-permanent basis and used for swimming, wading, immersion or theraputic purposes". You would have a hard time convincing anyone that (a) a splash pad holds water, and (b) it is used for swimming, wading, immersion, etc. The pad is used for playing on. Not swimming - there's no standing water. Not wading - there's no standing water. Not immersion - there's no standing water. Not therapeutic - this isn't for health, it's a "wet playground" for kids.

Sounds like 680 has nothing to do with it.
 

malachi constant

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis
Sounds like 680 has nothing to do with it.

Does 680 have nothing to do with it because grounding & bonding is not important for safety at a splash pad with 24V DC components sitting in the middle of it? In that case, does something else in the code speak to what grounding requirements should be?

Or does 680 have nothing to do with it because grounding and bonding IS important but splash pads are such a new phenomenon that the code hasn't been updated to adequately address it.

Another way of putting it - would you feel comfortable as an electrical professional NOT bonding the splash pad? Not grounding the recirc pumps? Is it an unsafe condition that could kill a kid/kids? I honestly don't know. I would guess if you had a short in the activator, that 24V DC could work it's way up through the water/wet concrete...and then what? would there be enough of a potential to matter? What about the recirc equipment - could that short and introduce a dangerous current to the pad via the water? I know enough to ask the questions but not enough to answer them, just looking for a little help.

AHJ has been called. They are reviewing documents and codes. I don't know that they will be of much help though - they tend to go by the book, and in this case I don't think the book has been written yet, so don't know what they will do.

I'm leaning towards bonding the concrete, jets, foot actuator, etc. Throwing in a ground rod for fun. Bond back to building. Set the foot actuator DC power on an isolated transformer. Bond the recirc motors. Provide GFCI for all related pool equipment (10A recirc motors, 5A sump pump). If anyone has an educated opinion as to why these things are good ideas/bad ideas I would love to hear them.

I've learned a lot about pool grounding the last couple days. Appreciate this site a lot. Thanks!
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
IMO, based on definitions in 680, unless it meets the definition of "storable" (on or above ground <42" of water or non-metallic or inflatable walls, etc), then Aty 680 Part "General" and Part II apply.
 

malachi constant

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis
IMO, based on definitions in 680, unless it meets the definition of "storable" (on or above ground <42" of water or non-metallic or inflatable walls, etc), then Aty 680 Part "General" and Part II apply.

I know I am arguing out of both sides of my mouth here, and maybe I should stop it, but... although I concede it doesn't meet the definition of "storable", I also contend it does NOT meet the definition of "pool". No swimming. No wading. No immersion. No therapy. Ergo, no pool.

That said, I can't reiterate enough that if the code doesn't apply to a splash pad I still want to provide an appropriate and safely engineered design. Code is minimum safety requirements, right? Nothing to keep us from going beyond it. I just don't want to do something ineffective like drive a hundred ground rods, or something dangerous like bonding things that shouldn't be bonded (or not bond something that should probably be bonded). I also don't want to spend the Owner's money meeting 680 if there is no sound engineering reason for doing so. I don't know my grounding theory enough to make that call without getting feedback.

The answer is probably to follow 680 as if this thing met the definition of a pool.

Which, of course, it doesn't. :)
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I just looked it up and it can basically look like a sprinkler on a lawn. I guess to be safe I would run an epb around the perimeter into the pump. I have no idea how this would be classified.
 

malachi constant

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis
I just looked it up and it can basically look like a sprinkler on a lawn. I guess to be safe I would run an epb around the perimeter into the pump. I have no idea how this would be classified.

I agree with that. Is there benefit to putting the 24V DC foot actuator on an isolating transformer? FYI the actuator is mounted in a stainless steel box, all exposed parts are plastic, it's fed with 2#14 plus ground.

Also - what about a safety switch? If there was some sort of fault in the actuator would it be wise to have a disconnect per 680.12 located within sight? Same thing for the recirc pump? Would you provide two disconnects - one for the 230V pump, one for the 24V actuator?

I think if I figure those items out then I have everything covered. Still hitting up the factory and AHJ for answers too. Thanks!
 
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Little Bill

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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
IMO, based on definitions in 680, unless it meets the definition of "storable" (on or above ground <42" of water or non-metallic or inflatable walls, etc), then Aty 680 Part "General" and Part II apply.

I know I am arguing out of both sides of my mouth here, and maybe I should stop it, but... although I concede it doesn't meet the definition of "storable", I also contend it does NOT meet the definition of "pool". No swimming. No wading. No immersion. No therapy. Ergo, no pool.

That said, I can't reiterate enough that if the code doesn't apply to a splash pad I still want to provide an appropriate and safely engineered design. Code is minimum safety requirements, right? Nothing to keep us from going beyond it. I just don't want to do something ineffective like drive a hundred ground rods, or something dangerous like bonding things that shouldn't be bonded (or not bond something that should probably be bonded). I also don't want to spend the Owner's money meeting 680 if there is no sound engineering reason for doing so. I don't know my grounding theory enough to make that call without getting feedback.

The answer is probably to follow 680 as if this thing met the definition of a pool.

Which, of course, it doesn't. :)

I believe Augie was responding to the OP. I see you have a quandry here, but this thread has kind of got derailed. It's hard to keep up with both problems. No offense intended.
 
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