Dishonesty, Why Does it Pay?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
First let me say that you may be right about the 50/50 split but I like to be more optimistic.

I'm sure it would be hard to find a totally rightous man. We all have certain flaws but I don't think there is really a very large percentage of the population that's bad. The problem we have is that it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the whole barrel.

I doubt if there is one person in a hundred that would steal a Christmas tree but with five hundred people in the area that still leaves a few that would.

True story, I know of somebody that went to city during Christmas shopping season, for whatever reason they had a dead cat in a shopping bag in view inside their car. Someone broke into car and stole the bag. Apparently they did not check what was in bag while on scene because it was no where nearby.:)
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Hey I would never consider myself "righteous" but when explaining a good or bad person to my son I try to keep it simple. My take on it is if your are willing to take from someone or hurt someone to get something you want then your bad.

BTW did you see this rash of "smash and grab" thefts on the news? Hey lets go down the local mall parking lot and smash in someones back windshield and steal the X-mas gifts they left in the back seat. That sounds like a good time.

Unfortunately, it happens every year around this time at shopping malls and parking lots all over the country.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
dishonesty never pays. regardless of what you may see and or think. integrity, like happiness, is an inside and outside job. the only thing necessary for bad deeds to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing.
I wish I could agree with you, but every day dishonesty, corruption, and theft puts millions into the pockets of unremorseful and undeserving individuals at the expense of the rest of us.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The reality is that bidding on government jobs is often a completely different world. Who you know is often far more important than anything else. It is just the way things are.

Roads and public buildings have to get built so someone is going to get the project. Most times the way these contracts get let are pretty sleezy, but they are often the biggest projects around and government always pays, so any good sized company will have to deal with them whether they want to or not.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
First let me say that you may be right about the 50/50 split but I like to be more optimistic.

I'm sure it would be hard to find a totally rightous man. We all have certain flaws but I don't think there is really a very large percentage of the population that's bad. The problem we have is that it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the whole barrel.

I doubt if there is one person in a hundred that would steal a Christmas tree but with five hundred people in the area that still leaves a few that would.

Hey I would never consider myself "righteous" but when explaining a good or bad person to my son I try to keep it simple. My take on it is if your are willing to take from someone or hurt someone to get something you want then your bad.

BTW did you see this rash of "smash and grab" thefts on the news? Hey lets go down the local mall parking lot and smash in someones back windshield and steal the X-mas gifts they left in the back seat. That sounds like a good time.

The problem with right and wrong, good or bad, is where you stand at the time. We used to do this in the office every once in awhile just for good discussion, we called it the question of the day. One question was, you find a bag of drugs, you know who to sell it to and you know you won't get caught and you know you can get $100,000 for it. What do you do?

If you're a millionaire of couse, $100K doesn't really mean that much, but if you're barely getting by....Are you a bad person for selling drugs or are you a good person for looking after your family?
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Somewhat related and something I might have posted before.

We have two buildings on the same street.
A guy with a flat bed pick up came into our works and talked to the first guy he met - a machine operator.
He claimed to be picking up some motors to take from one building to the other. The machine operator told the guy that he would need to see the boss and his wife.
The guy with pick up truck then went directly to my workshop foreman withe the story that he had been instructed by the boss and his wife to move the motors.
It was a nice but probably lucky touch. The machine operator's boss is a husband and wife team. But not me and my missus.
My foreman, not unreasonably, supposed the boss and his wife to be me and my buying/engineering support person AKA Mrs B.
The foreman tried to find me but I was in a meeting and he didn't want to disrupt it. So he took the plausible story at face value and loaded the machines on to the truck.
Maybe my guy had some reservations because he watched the truck drive down the side of our building - and turn left instead of right.
Partial plate and vehicle description wasn't enough to catch the perpetrators.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
The problem with right and wrong, good or bad, is where you stand at the time. We used to do this in the office every once in awhile just for good discussion, we called it the question of the day. One question was, you find a bag of drugs, you know who to sell it to and you know you won't get caught and you know you can get $100,000 for it. What do you do?

If you're a millionaire of couse, $100K doesn't really mean that much, but if you're barely getting by....Are you a bad person for selling drugs or are you a good person for looking after your family?

I think a lot of those millionaire types would be more likely to sell the drugs than than turn them in to the authorities. Maybe even more than the average Joe.

How do you think they got to be millionaires in the first place? By never letting an opportunity pass by.

The legallity of selling the drugs wouldn't bother me one bit but the damage the drugs could do to the people that buy and use them would. I have very little respect for the law but quite a bit of respect for my fellow human beings.

I like to think I would turn the drugs in but you never know unless actually faced with temptation.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I think a lot of those millionaire types would be more likely to sell the drugs than than turn them in to the authorities. Maybe even more than the average Joe.

How do you think they got to be millionaires in the first place? By never letting an opportunity pass by.

The legallity of selling the drugs wouldn't bother me one bit but the damage the drugs could do to the people that buy and use them would. I have very little respect for the law but quite a bit of respect for my fellow human beings.

I like to think I would turn the drugs in but you never know unless actually faced with temptation.
It would to some extent depend on what sort of drugs we are talking about.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think a lot of those millionaire types would be more likely to sell the drugs than than turn them in to the authorities. Maybe even more than the average Joe.

How do you think they got to be millionaires in the first place? By never letting an opportunity pass by.

The legallity of selling the drugs wouldn't bother me one bit but the damage the drugs could do to the people that buy and use them would. I have very little respect for the law but quite a bit of respect for my fellow human beings.

I like to think I would turn the drugs in but you never know unless actually faced with temptation.

Some are just rich kids that inherited their fortune. They are more likely to use the drugs instead of turning them in or disposing of them.

Millionaire does not really have the same meaning as it did 25+ years ago. Billionaire is kind of out of reach for most though. So what is the title for someone that has acquired maybe 25 million or more?
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
I think a lot of those millionaire types would be more likely to sell the drugs than than turn them in to the authorities. Maybe even more than the average Joe.

How do you think they got to be millionaires in the first place? By never letting an opportunity pass by.

The legallity of selling the drugs wouldn't bother me one bit but the damage the drugs could do to the people that buy and use them would. I have very little respect for the law but quite a bit of respect for my fellow human beings.

I like to think I would turn the drugs in but you never know unless actually faced with temptation.

Also, the millionaire knows that he can probably buy his way out of jail time.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I like to think I would turn the drugs in but you never know unless actually faced with temptation.

Of course you don't know, that's the problem with judging. I joke, sort of, that everyone has a price, I joke that I can be bought off for $2.5M because I figure that if I'm going to lose my job, it's going to be worth my while, $10,000 just isn't going to do it.

Now would I really sell out for $2.5M, I don't know, no ones ever offered it to me.:happysad:
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Old joke:

What kind of woman do you take me for?

We've established that, now we are just negotiating a price. :)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Of course you don't know, that's the problem with judging. I joke, sort of, that everyone has a price, I joke that I can be bought off for $2.5M because I figure that if I'm going to lose my job, it's going to be worth my while, $10,000 just isn't going to do it.

Now would I really sell out for $2.5M, I don't know, no ones ever offered it to me.:happysad:

Nobody has ever submitted you a drawing on the back of a $2.5M check in other words, you have had drawings on $10,000 checks but they were not big enough:D
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Nobody has ever submitted you a drawing on the back of a $2.5M check in other words, you have had drawings on $10,000 checks but they were not big enough:D

Yeah they get a note that says resubmit plans.:D

There are two inspectors from the city of Los Angeles that were just popped for taking bribes, the bribes were about $9.000 each. This was a federally funded project so of course they are being prosecuted in federal court.

I can't even begin to tell you how little good $9,000 would do me. That would just barely make two of my house payments.

Lifes ruined, reputations done, jobs and pensions gone, for one dance with the devil.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
"Life ruined, reputation gone ...."

I have to question that.

The 'honor code' says 'I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor will I tolerate those who do.' Far too many folks seem to believe 'it's commendable to lie, cheat, and steal- on my behalf!'

Let's look at some very real examples, well documented, that illustrate the point:

K-Mart once did auto servicing, and their shops all had nice posters (out of customer view) declaring their 'code of ethics.' Things like 'no working on personal cars.' What was notable was that all 21 points in the code addressed the employee's relationship with K-Mart- and none were directed towards the relationship between K-Mart and the customers. Several States' Attorneys were able to convict K-Mart of systematically defrauding customers. The preferred methods were to 'prescribe' unnecessary work, and to charge for work that was never done.

Allstate Insurance once had an agent who misled / directed a customer to submit a claim after a deadline passed. The claim was denied for missing the deadline. Legal actions that followed proved this was deliberate, systematic, and the courts held it to be unfair. Allstate appealed to the circuit court level; the Supremes declined to hear the case. What's relevant is that, by the time the case was finished, the dishonest agent had continued to rise through the company ranks, all the way to being vice-president. I guess he was just their sort of guy.

The predecessor conglomerate of the firm known today as Tyco used their various positions in code-making bodies to get the ASME to issue a 'letter ruling' that literally declared a competitor's product to be a code breaker. The suit that followed proved the corruption of the process by ITT, and the fraud committed. ITT's various entities all made rather generous settlements, and the ASME was nearly destroyed. Nevertheless, no one within ITT was punished for this cabal they had formed. Considering the senior positions, I suspect these crooks were just the sort of men ITT valued.

Finally, the Steel Tube Institute had no problem 'stuffing the ballot box' in their attempt to prevent plastic conduit from entering the NEC. I am not aware of anyone at the STI even admitting that their actions were dishonorable.

Face it: Honesty is not a virture recognized everywhere.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
"Life ruined, reputation gone ...."

I have to question that.

The 'honor code' says 'I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor will I tolerate those who do.' Far too many folks seem to believe 'it's commendable to lie, cheat, and steal- on my behalf!'

Let's look at some very real examples, well documented, that illustrate the point:

K-Mart once did auto servicing, and their shops all had nice posters (out of customer view) declaring their 'code of ethics.' Things like 'no working on personal cars.' What was notable was that all 21 points in the code addressed the employee's relationship with K-Mart- and none were directed towards the relationship between K-Mart and the customers. Several States' Attorneys were able to convict K-Mart of systematically defrauding customers. The preferred methods were to 'prescribe' unnecessary work, and to charge for work that was never done.

Allstate Insurance once had an agent who misled / directed a customer to submit a claim after a deadline passed. The claim was denied for missing the deadline. Legal actions that followed proved this was deliberate, systematic, and the courts held it to be unfair. Allstate appealed to the circuit court level; the Supremes declined to hear the case. What's relevant is that, by the time the case was finished, the dishonest agent had continued to rise through the company ranks, all the way to being vice-president. I guess he was just their sort of guy.

The predecessor conglomerate of the firm known today as Tyco used their various positions in code-making bodies to get the ASME to issue a 'letter ruling' that literally declared a competitor's product to be a code breaker. The suit that followed proved the corruption of the process by ITT, and the fraud committed. ITT's various entities all made rather generous settlements, and the ASME was nearly destroyed. Nevertheless, no one within ITT was punished for this cabal they had formed. Considering the senior positions, I suspect these crooks were just the sort of men ITT valued.

Finally, the Steel Tube Institute had no problem 'stuffing the ballot box' in their attempt to prevent plastic conduit from entering the NEC. I am not aware of anyone at the STI even admitting that their actions were dishonorable.

Face it: Honesty is not a virture recognized everywhere.

Now I never said it was, you probably couldn't throw a rock in DC and not hit a liar.

You'll notice that Sears, Wards, and some other's don't have auto centers anymore, because they all did it. My wife worked in the Sears auto department as a secretary and they tried to pull that on me.

I'm old school and the cowboy part of my name might make you understand this, I sign a contract with you and you break it, we'll just let our lawyers work it out. You shake my hand and lie to me, you'll never lie to me again.
 

Strife

Senior Member
"Life ruined, reputation gone ...."

K-Mart once did auto servicing, and their shops all had nice posters (out of customer view) declaring their 'code of ethics.' Things like 'no working on personal cars.' What was notable was that all 21 points in the code addressed the employee's relationship with K-Mart- and none were directed towards the relationship between K-Mart and the customers. Several States' Attorneys were able to convict K-Mart of systematically defrauding customers. The preferred methods were to 'prescribe' unnecessary work, and to charge for work that was never done.

I once had a boss who reamed my behind for taking 12 hrs to do a T&M job.
Then right in front of me, he proceeded to write 16Hrs on the T&M invoice.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Maintaining an honorable system of commerce is like driving a road with a steep slippery slope into the ditch on both sides. The harder times become, the narrower the road gets. This forces some folks onto the shoulder doing what they feel like they have to do to get by and trying to get around those who are still on the road.

Some of these guys get good at driving on the shoulder. Many end up in the ditch, but driving on the shoulder is rewarded with progress relative to those on the road. This is a strong incentive for everyone to start driving on the shoulder, which puts even more people in the ditch and brings traffic on the road to a halt. It's a vicious circle which cannot end well.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maintaining an honorable system of commerce is like driving a road with a steep slippery slope into the ditch on both sides. The harder times become, the narrower the road gets. This forces some folks onto the shoulder doing what they feel like they have to do to get by and trying to get around those who are still on the road.

Some of these guys get good at driving on the shoulder. Many end up in the ditch, but driving on the shoulder is rewarded with progress relative to those on the road. This is a strong incentive for everyone to start driving on the shoulder, which puts even more people in the ditch and brings traffic on the road to a halt. It's a vicious circle which cannot end well.

Then there are those that try to find a way to make the road safer somehow, or try to take alternate roads. Those are the good guys.
 
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