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Thread: 210.12 (A) Laundry areas

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    The more open designs we often see in homes kind of leaves us with "areas" or "spaces" more so then it leaves us with "rooms" with clearer boundaries. This leaves the definition of a area or space up to the user, installer, designer, AHJ, ... and of course all of them may have a different definition for a particular application. Maybe it is time for NEC to do something to clarify it's intention, some probably will not like it but at least there would be a definition and hopefully some consistency from one install to the next where the term needs to be used.
    In the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts I believe it is the regulated and not the regulator the decides what the space is . I base this suggestion on this from the Mass. BBRS Though a slightly different question I still think it would be viewed in much the same way .

    "Question 7: 780 CMR 3603.16.13 requires that an existing one- or two-family dwelling be provided with a household fire warning system for new construction when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in the existing dwelling. What constitutes a bedroom under this Section?


    Answer 7: The State Board of Building Regulations and Standards (BBRS), as the Agency promulgating the Massachusetts State Building Code, is the “AUTHORITY HAVING JURISDICTION” (AHJ) regarding the interpretation of regulations of the State Building Code and has determined that it is the responsibility of the building owner or the agent of the building owner to identify any new or newly created bedrooms or other space USES. If submitted plans and/or narratives that describe the work intended identify such new additions or newly created spaces as other than bedrooms then 780 CMR 3603.16.13 does not apply (note that it is the “REGULATED COMMUNITY” and not the “REGULATOR” who identifies, on plans and/or narratives submitted as part of the building permit application to the Building Department, if a bedroom is being added or created)."
    "America will never be destroyed from the outside.
    If we falter and lose our freedoms,
    it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

    Abraham Lincoln

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. D. View Post
    In the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts I believe it is the regulated and not the regulator the decides what the space is . I base this suggestion on this from the Mass. BBRS Though a slightly different question I still think it would be viewed in much the same way .

    "Question 7: 780 CMR 3603.16.13 requires that an existing one- or two-family dwelling be provided with a household fire warning system for new construction when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in the existing dwelling. What constitutes a bedroom under this Section?


    Answer 7: The State Board of Building Regulations and Standards (BBRS), as the Agency promulgating the Massachusetts State Building Code, is the “AUTHORITY HAVING JURISDICTION” (AHJ) regarding the interpretation of regulations of the State Building Code and has determined that it is the responsibility of the building owner or the agent of the building owner to identify any new or newly created bedrooms or other space USES. If submitted plans and/or narratives that describe the work intended identify such new additions or newly created spaces as other than bedrooms then 780 CMR 3603.16.13 does not apply (note that it is the “REGULATED COMMUNITY” and not the “REGULATOR” who identifies, on plans and/or narratives submitted as part of the building permit application to the Building Department, if a bedroom is being added or created)."
    Thanks, might come in handy if I ever am in Mass.

  3. #13
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    check your state you may find it's similar ,.. but Bob is from mass and though not quoted I wanted him to see it too
    "America will never be destroyed from the outside.
    If we falter and lose our freedoms,
    it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

    Abraham Lincoln

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. D. View Post
    check your state you may find it's similar ,.. but Bob is from mass and though not quoted I wanted him to see it too
    It may have been you that had posted it before but thanks again.

    That said I see what you posted as applying to what it says it applies to and not an arbitrary 'area'.

    At any rate I am feeling very real world lately and I think that the inspector is going to decide where the laundry areas starts and where it ends.

    Could you fight it? Sure and in the mean time there is no sign off and the customer is pissed off.

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    ~ ~ & ~ ~

    "At any rate I am feeling very real world lately and I think that the inspector is going to decide where the laundry areas starts and where it ends."
    Legally & ethically, an inspector cannot and should not be deciding
    where the Laundry Area starts and where it ends........These type
    of defined areas should be on the submitted plans........The
    submitted plans should be reviewed and approved for construction.
    If there are questions or inconsistencies on the submitted plans,
    then those issues should be addressed before the permit is issued,
    ...
    "IF" allowed to !

    Home builders have a very strong lobbying presence in the
    various communities.........It is much easier and cheaper for the
    AHJ to fire a competent Building Inspector, than to comply with
    their own adopted codes & policies.


    ~ ~ & ~ ~
    Last edited by north star; 04-19-14 at 10:06 AM.

  6. #16
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    Well Bob what can I say,.. I guess until there is a formal interpretation on every conceivable code question things will always be gray .But I've got a feeling on this issue in a code cycle or two it won't matter much AFCI/ GFCI will be every where and when that day comes people will still find nits to pick.
    "America will never be destroyed from the outside.
    If we falter and lose our freedoms,
    it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

    Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by M. D. View Post
    check your state you may find it's similar ,.. but Bob is from mass and though not quoted I wanted him to see it too
    Not much to check that I am aware of. Most of the state electrical is all that is inspected, especially when it comes to dwellings. Larger cities (which are not all that large compared to what you are probably used to) often have their own building dept, but out here in the boonies we get building permits mostly so the assessor has a record to go on and in more recent years the use of non residential property has become more of an environmental concern and they want to review the use of the property before granting permission to build it. But how it is constructed is generally not much concern as long as it doesn't have potential environmental impact. Fire marshal does have some input on facilities open to the general public though and will have some building code concerns but they don't get into every little detail like they do in many other places.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by north star View Post
    Legally & ethically, an inspector cannot and should not be deciding
    where the Laundry Area starts and where it ends........These type
    of defined areas should be on the submitted plans........
    Very true, but with open living type homes I bet there is no dotted line on the prints distinguishing one area from another area. Say the kitchen area from the dinning area.

    The
    submitted plans should be reviewed and approved for construction.
    If there are questions or inconsistencies on the submitted plans,
    then those issues should be addressed before the permit is issued,
    Many areas do not do electrical plan review or even require electrical plans.
    Last edited by iwire; 04-19-14 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwire View Post
    Very true, but with open living type homes I better there is no dotted line on the prints distinguishing one area from another area. Say the kitchen area from the dinning area.



    Many areas do not do electrical plan review or even require electrical plans.
    Other than on this forum, those are things I have never heard of. In fact more then 75% of what I do has no plan other then what plans I make myself. I may know some major items that will need to be supplied, but beyond that it is all up to me to decide how it is done most of the time.

  10. #20
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    I'm working up an estimate to completely rewire a individual's summer camp. It qualifies as a dwelling unit. It has never had laundry equipment and probably never will (rather small building). Do I still have to provide a laundry circuit?
    Last edited by fmtjfw; 04-19-14 at 11:59 AM. Reason: added "'m"

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