Question about Well Pumps

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Little Bill

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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
I did some work for a customer and they ask me if I could connect their well pump up so they could have the water tested to see if it was potable for the house.

I told them I could do the electrical but they should get a plumber to check the water lines and make sure the well water wouldn't get into the "city" water.

I got a plumber that I know and he checked the system out and determined it was not tied into the utility water. So I connected the wires in the panel to a 2-pole breaker so he could run the pump to draw up some water for testing.

I had power to the well but nothing worked. The set-up they had was a Franklin Electric pump and disconnect. In the disconnect there is a relay and a capacitor. Also, a line/load terminal. There is also a pressure switch and it looks like they are only breaking one leg of the 240V.

The pressure switch checked good and I had power to the cap and relay. I did finally hear the disconnect humming so I killed the power and we pulled up the pump.
We then turned the power back on to see if the pump was working at all. It wasn't and got hot real quick.

The plumber wasn't familiar with that pump. He said the ones he had dealt with only had the 240V line in, then through a pressure switch to the pump. Also, he said usually there was just a disconnect without a cap and relay.

Question is why would there be a different setup for various well pumps? My guess would be the type motor being used and the size.

The pump/motor they have says 1/2 HP continuous duty. They would like to know if they could replace the motor with one that didn't require the cap and relay.

The well is about 50' from the house and in about 20' of water. They also plan on running two other lines to locations outside, each about 100'.

So any of you experienced with wells, please chime in.
 

G._S._Ohm

Senior Member
Location
DC area
The pump/motor they have says 1/2 HP continuous duty.
in about 20' of water.
It's the 3956 formula.

hp = GPM x Head in feet/3956.
and
GPM = 3956x hp/(head in feet)

For a 20' head and 0.5 hp, GPM = 99, but these things are about 50% efficient, so 50 GPM. City water gives you less than 16 GPM. Of course, your head to the top story is probably more like 40'
With this formula and the Grainger catalog you can get an idea of pump/motor efficiencies, which may range from 20% to 80%, "wires to water".

The cap is probably to give high starting torque.
 
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augie47

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Most of the older submersible well pumps in this area required the remote control box with start capacitor and overload, etc.
The newer ones have all that built in and simply require a circuit through a pressure switch.
The remote unit pumps take a 3 wire (+ ground) cable to the pump (from the control), the others simply a 2 wire + ground
From my limited experience, I'd say your pump is locked up (mechanically) or you have a bad capacitor.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I did some work for a customer and they ask me if I could connect their well pump up so they could have the water tested to see if it was potable for the house.

I told them I could do the electrical but they should get a plumber to check the water lines and make sure the well water wouldn't get into the "city" water.

I got a plumber that I know and he checked the system out and determined it was not tied into the utility water. So I connected the wires in the panel to a 2-pole breaker so he could run the pump to draw up some water for testing.

I had power to the well but nothing worked. The set-up they had was a Franklin Electric pump and disconnect. In the disconnect there is a relay and a capacitor. Also, a line/load terminal. There is also a pressure switch and it looks like they are only breaking one leg of the 240V.

The pressure switch checked good and I had power to the cap and relay. I did finally hear the disconnect humming so I killed the power and we pulled up the pump.
We then turned the power back on to see if the pump was working at all. It wasn't and got hot real quick.

The plumber wasn't familiar with that pump. He said the ones he had dealt with only had the 240V line in, then through a pressure switch to the pump. Also, he said usually there was just a disconnect without a cap and relay.

Question is why would there be a different setup for various well pumps? My guess would be the type motor being used and the size.

The pump/motor they have says 1/2 HP continuous duty. They would like to know if they could replace the motor with one that didn't require the cap and relay.

The well is about 50' from the house and in about 20' of water. They also plan on running two other lines to locations outside, each about 100'.

So any of you experienced with wells, please chime in.
You can have the cap to start the pump remote or in the pump or get a three phase pump.

Nothing wrong with breaking one leg at the pressure switch.

Is this a new pump? Is it seized up?
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Most of the older submersible well pumps in this area required the remote control box with start capacitor and overload, etc.
The newer ones have all that built in and simply require a circuit through a pressure switch.
The remote unit pumps take a 3 wire (+ ground) cable to the pump (from the control), the others simply a 2 wire + ground
From my limited experience, I'd say your pump is locked up (mechanically) or you have a bad capacitor.

You can have the cap to start the pump remote or in the pump or get a three phase pump.

Nothing wrong with breaking one leg at the pressure switch.

Is this a new pump? Is it seized up?

These folk just bought this place and saw it had a well and wanted to make use of it. According to the records from the deceased former owner, the pump was installed in 2005. Don't know how long it ran after that. I do know it has been just sitting there not in use for at least 2 years.
Yes I'm pretty sure it's locked up. The plumber called me back and said he took the control box to someone that checked the capacitor and they said it was good.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Does the pump have two or three wires coming out of the motor? If three, a black, red and a yellow, it requires a control box.

It has the 4-wire yellow jacketed well pump wire. Like you said, black, yellow, red, and ground.
It does have a control box. They wanted to know if they could get a pump that didn't require one but would still provide the GPM for their situation. I think they think the ones without the control box cost less.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
To get a better idea of what they have you might go to Google, Images, type in "detail well pumps".

I'll bet that a copy of the exact equipment layout is somewhere.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
A two wire pump should work fine for them, especially since its a bored well. The three wire pumps are better for deep wells because lightning strikes usually take out the control box first saving the pump. Quick and cheap to replace components above ground, not so cheap to pull a pump and replace.
 

Little Bill

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
A two wire pump should work fine for them, especially since its a bored well. The three wire pumps are better for deep wells because lightning strikes usually take out the control box first saving the pump. Quick and cheap to replace components above ground, not so cheap to pull a pump and replace.

Are the components on the pump replaceable on a two wire pump?
How did you determine it was a bored well?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Are the components on the pump replaceable on a two wire pump?
Short answer, no.
How did you determine it was a bored well?
There is a round piece of metal or plastic pipe sticking up out of the ground with a cover on it and usually a j-box on the outside where you bring power to the tail coming off the pump.

The only other well pump system I know of is a deep well jet pump and based on the information you are giving you don't have that.

I would use a three wire pump. If you are lucky the pump on site may not need replaced, could just be a rock stuck in the impeller. If your not so lucky and you have to replace the pump it will cost more than a two wire pump but will be better in the long run. Even if you have to replace the Franklin box, that is not a big deal.

Also, not to be banging on your plumber, but it sounds like he does not have a lot of experience with well pumps. That is not unusual since well guys and plumbers are related; but more like distant cousins, not brother and sister. You may need to talk to a well guy.

Don't ever let a well guy do any wiring on a project that you are associated with except for the connection at the pump.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
...................

Don't ever let a well guy do any wiring on a project that you are associated with except for the connection at the pump.

Amen to that :D
On a few jobs where the local well guys did not know there was going to be an inspection, I found their "well cable" and open splices all the way back to the pane, through the open 2" knockout and terminated on a 60 amp breaker and such.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
A two wire pump should work fine for them, especially since its a bored well. The three wire pumps are better for deep wells because lightning strikes usually take out the control box first saving the pump. Quick and cheap to replace components above ground, not so cheap to pull a pump and replace.
I agree. If the total depth is over 50-75 ft then go with the three wire. The two wire pumps have the start/run cap. built in. In a lightning strike that is the first thing to go. Then you are stuck pulling the pump. With a three wire all is above ground and a lot of times all that is needed it to push the reset button on the bottom of the control box. One thing to be aware of though is your state laws concerning wells. In NC there is a law that you must be certified to break the sanitary seal on the well casing and to do the disinfecting. You must pull a permit from the health department and after replacing the pump they must do a water test before it can be used.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Are the components on the pump replaceable on a two wire pump?
How did you determine it was a bored well?

Since you said the pump was in 20 feet of water, I deduced that it was a bored well, (well casing is at least 3' across, usually concrete, with a concrete lid, drilled wells use pipe for the casing, either PVC or steel) Bored wells are usually no deeper than 30-50' deep, while drilled wells are much deeper. A pump in a drilled well that is in only 20' of water is not a good sign.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
These folk just bought this place and saw it had a well and wanted to make use of it. According to the records from the deceased former owner, the pump was installed in 2005. Don't know how long it ran after that. I do know it has been just sitting there not in use for at least 2 years.
Yes I'm pretty sure it's locked up. The plumber called me back and said he took the control box to someone that checked the capacitor and they said it was good.

There is also a potential relay in the control box that switches the capacitor in/out of the circuit when necessary. Did anyone check that out? When you get into pumps larger than 1 Hp there usually is also a run capacitor in the control box, and often a contactor and often motor overload(s) for any size pump.

The main as some have mentioned is capacitors and starting switching devices are most common failure for single phase motors, if the pump is deep you do not want to have to pull it just to replace a capacitor, or starting switch.

How much effort it takes to pull a pump depends mostly on how deep it is and what size of water line is installed. There is a check valve usually located right at the pump discharge outlet that holds all the water in the riser from flowing back. That means the larger and longer the riser pipe is, the more water it will hold, and the heavier it will be. Makes replacing a capacitor only a 10 minute job vs a few hours.
 
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Jraef

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Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
There are two types of single phase motors used in pumps; capacitor start and PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor). PSC motors have the caps built-in and are therefore simpler from an installation standpoint, but are usually more expensive and produce less starting torque. Also, the caps are built into the motor itself, and on a submersible, there is very little room for parts, especially as the HP goes up. So for wells, you don't often see them if there is a lot of head, there is a risk that they won't get the water flowing against it.

Cap start motors are better at starting torque but require switching the starting cap in at startup and out again when the motor gets to 90% speed. Not difficult on a land based motor, it's done with a centrifugal switch. But that wears out and needs maintenance, which is difficult if the motor is under ground and under water. So they put the caps above the ground and use a voltage relay that detects when the motor is close enough to full speed to switch out the starting cap.

So it may be that you cannot get a PSC ("2 wire") motor that will work for that well. This is something for a pump expert though, it's not an electricians job.

By the way, I agree with the others, most likely if the pump sat for a while unused down in the well, it's likely seized up with rust or sand and nothing you do on the surface will help.

Re: 3 phase submersibles with a phase adder. That's usually only done if the pump mfr is European because they don't typically need single phase pumps since everyone has 3 phase available. But Franklin is US based, they don't do that. It's horribly inefficient and is usually only done on sewage lift pumps, not potable water wells.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Since you said the pump was in 20 feet of water, I deduced that it was a bored well, (well casing is at least 3' across, usually concrete, with a concrete lid, drilled wells use pipe for the casing, either PVC or steel) Bored wells are usually no deeper than 30-50' deep, while drilled wells are much deeper. A pump in a drilled well that is in only 20' of water is not a good sign.

To be honest, I didn't check the depth all the way to the bottom. I was only going by the water/wet line on the 1-1/4" pipe. For all I know the pump was no where near the bottom of the well, but could have been that's as far down as the original HO put it.

As far as the type well, all I know is it is in a concrete block enclosure with a concrete floor. The cover over the enclosure is just a framed top with a metal covering like any metal roofing. It just sits on the enclosure and you have to lift or flip it off. The well casing is about 6-8" and appears to be metal.
The cover is a two-piece cast/metal cover. Is that what some here have referred to as the "sanitary cap/seal"?

Also, to sum it up, the HO should consider a new 3-wire pump for ease of repair in the future?

This was my first experience with a well and I have already learned a lot from you guys, Thanks!!
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
To be honest, I didn't check the depth all the way to the bottom. I was only going by the water/wet line on the 1-1/4" pipe. For all I know the pump was no where near the bottom of the well, but could have been that's as far down as the original HO put it.

As far as the type well, all I know is it is in a concrete block enclosure with a concrete floor. The cover over the enclosure is just a framed top with a metal covering like any metal roofing. It just sits on the enclosure and you have to lift or flip it off. The well casing is about 6-8" and appears to be metal.
The cover is a two-piece cast/metal cover. Is that what some here have referred to as the "sanitary cap/seal"?

Also, to sum it up, the HO should consider a new 3-wire pump for ease of repair in the future?

This was my first experience with a well and I have already learned a lot from you guys, Thanks!!

Ok, it's a drilled well then. The pump and motor are separable, so you may be able to take it apart and break it loose, but by the time you do all that, your probably better off just replacing it. The well may have went dry, which may be the reason they quit using it.
 
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