Additional Service??

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360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
Sometimes you have to ask the potential bonehead question just to get something through your head, so here is mine...Does the additional service permitted in 230.2 (A) require and additional meter as well, or can you have two services from one meter? Thanks, and my apologies for asking stuff I should already know. :dunce:
 

360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
From Art 100 Definitions...Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served.

...along with Figure 230.1 Services.
service.jpg

...I would presume that an additional service requires an additional meter because it seems the "serving utility" is the transformer.

Again, thanks.
 

102 Inspector

Senior Member
Location
N/E Indiana
Occupation
Inspector- All facets
Although it might qualify as a single service, the grouping of disconnecting means shall be in a common location. One meter can service the multiple disconnect with a 6 switch rule.
 

north star

Senior Member
Location
inside Area 51
: = : = :

Just out of curiosity, ...while a 2nd Service is allowed
by Article 230.2(A), ...may I please ask what you are
supplying with the 2nd service ?.......
REASON: 2nd
Services are usually meant to provide a 2nd source
of power if a transformer, or a section of the Grid
goes down.....Will your 2nd Service be coming from
another [ electrical ] Grid, or transformer location ?
Thanks!

: = : = :
 

360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
: = : = :

Just out of curiosity, ...while a 2nd Service is allowed
by Article 230.2(A), ...may I please ask what you are
supplying with the 2nd service ?.......
REASON: 2nd
Services are usually meant to provide a 2nd source
of power if a transformer, or a section of the Grid
goes down.....Will your 2nd Service be coming from
another [ electrical ] Grid, or transformer location ?
Thanks!

: = : = :


(A) Special Conditions. Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
 

hurk27

Senior Member
A service is defined in the NEC as one drop or one lateral, nothing depends on how many meters or disconnects are installed, if you have one drop to the riser or one set of laterals then you have only one service, also see 230.40 Exception 2, the part in red below is even an allowance where you can have more then one lateral that is allowed for use with exception 2 to 230.40, depending upon what your needing to do one of the exceptions to 230.40 might be able to be used to supply more then one load from one meter, let us know what it is and we might be able to point to an allowance that will allow more then one set of entrance conductors as 230.40 states.


I. General
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure
served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted
in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40, Exception
No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and
larger, running to the same location and connected together at
their supply end but not connected together at their load end
shall be considered to be supplying one service
.

Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric
energy from the serving utility to the wiring system of
the premises served.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
(A) Special Conditions. Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability

Why would you need a second service to supply the transfer switch of a generator?, if switching the whole load then you would just redirect the meter SEC's to the transfer switch and re-feed the panel from the transfer switch?, I'm missing something?
 

construct

Senior Member
A service is defined in the NEC as one drop or one lateral, nothing depends on how many meters or disconnects are installed, if you have one drop to the riser or one set of laterals then you have only one service, also see 230.40 Exception 2, the part in red below is even an allowance where you can have more then one lateral that is allowed for use with exception 2 to 230.40, depending upon what your needing to do one of the exceptions to 230.40 might be able to be used to supply more then one load from one meter, let us know what it is and we might be able to point to an allowance that will allow more then one set of entrance conductors as 230.40 states.

I agree. I always think about "Point of Service". If all conductors are together at supply end, I consider it one service.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
I agree. I always think about "Point of Service". If all conductors are together at supply end, I consider it one service.

I agree but you must remember 230.40 only allows one set of service entrance conductors unless you can meet one of the exceptions to 230.40, which is kind of liberal in most cases.

I also think 230.40 exception 3 should not just be for dwellings as I can't see any reason why that other then dwellings can't to use this exception, it is one of my most used exceptions I used at dwellings to feed an out building to keep cost down for my customers as it eleminates the need for a EGC and another disconnect at the house which would have to be grouped or adding the load the the service panel which would add the cost of another two pole breaker, I been using this exception for years to feed out buildings off meters with double lugs or doing taps just under the meter in a JB.

It's been in the code for many years, but I still get the deer in the head light look when I tell inspectors of this allowed option because of the myth that they think you need another service disconnect even when the conductors do not enter the house, but the truth is you don't.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Forget the meter and just consider it to be a "wide point" in the conductors it is connected to.

Nothing in NEC even requires a meter to be a part of a service, but they are permitted to be inserted in the service portion of the installation.

So if whatever "branching out" or tapping you have done with service conductors is otherwise permitted, you are allowed to put a meter in them if desired.

I will add that POCO's may have their own rules that apply to their meters that are outside the NEC requirements, if you don't comply with their rules they don't have to provide service.
 
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mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Metering usually is a requirement of the serving utility company. If it is adressed in the NEC would someone state the article on metering? Though I would think all purchased power would be required to be metered by the proprietor.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Metering usually is a requirement of the serving utility company. If it is adressed in the NEC would someone state the article on metering? Though I would think all purchased power would be required to be metered by the proprietor.

Metering is not mentioned that much in the NEC. It is for the most part just a point in the conductors where the meter is located, does not have to be in service conductors either (by NEC requirements). There is no specific section on metering equipment, metering equipment is occasionally mentioned in other sections where there is situations when it is common to see metering being installed.

Larger services often are metered via CT's and the meter itself does not carry the current that is used like on smaller self contained meters.

Metering is also sometimes done before the service point and taken care of by the serving utility and the EC has nothing to do with meter sockets or other metering equipment at all.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Although it might qualify as a single service, the grouping of disconnecting means shall be in a common location. One meter can service the multiple disconnect with a 6 switch rule.
If you have multiple meters, there is no rule that requires that the disconnects for the service entrance conductors associated with one meter be grouped with the service disconnects associated with any other meter. Each meter is permitted to have up to six service disconnects.

If the service disconnects from multiple meters are grouped, then it appears that you would be limited to a maximum of six disconnects in a single location.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If you have multiple meters, there is no rule that requires that the disconnects for the service entrance conductors associated with one meter be grouped with the service disconnects associated with any other meter. Each meter is permitted to have up to six service disconnects.

If the service disconnects from multiple meters are grouped, then it appears that you would be limited to a maximum of six disconnects in a single location.

And if you need more than six meters, it is pretty common to see them on the load side of a service disconnect whether part of a meter bank or separate units.
 

102 Inspector

Senior Member
Location
N/E Indiana
Occupation
Inspector- All facets
That was the point I was trying to make with grouping. I have a 1200 service with 18 meters installed after the main disconnect. Each meter has an individual disconnect also for each apartment, but because it is more than 6, the 1200 amp disconnect switch was required. Typically with a small commercial complex, I have had them put all the main disconnects in a dedicated room and then feeder to the actual tenant space. All off on service coming to the building. Fire Departments love it when they know exactly where to shut off the power. Just because they call them the bravest, does not mean they are the smartest. I can say that because I are one.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That was the point I was trying to make with grouping. I have a 1200 service with 18 meters installed after the main disconnect. Each meter has an individual disconnect also for each apartment, but because it is more than 6, the 1200 amp disconnect switch was required. Typically with a small commercial complex, I have had them put all the main disconnects in a dedicated room and then feeder to the actual tenant space. All off on service coming to the building. Fire Departments love it when they know exactly where to shut off the power. Just because they call them the bravest, does not mean they are the smartest. I can say that because I are one.
But with outside meters and service conductors there is no reason to have a single main. You can set all of the meters at one point and run the sevice conductors to the panel at each occupancy, using the main at each occupancy as the service disconnects.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
But with outside meters and service conductors there is no reason to have a single main. You can set all of the meters at one point and run the sevice conductors to the panel at each occupancy, using the main at each occupancy as the service disconnects.
But, as a further complication, some jurisdictions do not allow outside disconnects!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I have never heard of any place where outside disconnects were not permitted. I know of places that prohibit inside disconnects.

I may be misinterpreting what is stated here regarding the Chicago Electrical Code (which I do not have a copy of), but I interpret this as either prohibiting an outside disconnect or requiring that there also be an inside disconnect:

18-27-230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.

(a) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location in the basement or first floor area of a building or structure, within the main wall, at a point not exceeding 5 ft (1.92 m) from the point of entry. When the distance of the service raceway needs to exceed 5 ft (1.92 m) from the point of entry into the building, the service raceway shall conform to the requirements of Section 18-27-230.6.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
But with outside meters and service conductors there is no reason to have a single main. You can set all of the meters at one point and run the sevice conductors to the panel at each occupancy, using the main at each occupancy as the service disconnects.

where do you group your(six or less) service disconnects? This sounds like they are located in each apartment.
 
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