Circuit Breaker "On" with no connection

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BCAyres

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Does the NEC address the case of a circuit breaker being in the "on" position yet has no connection, even though the circuit directory may indicate the breaker as a spare? A recent hospital joint commission review of a local facility cited this and the hospital engineer has requested an opinion by our m & e firm.
 

roger

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There is no problem with this.

In my experience I have seen The Joint Commision come up with some off the wall stuff at times and this is a good one. :roll:

Roger
 

hbendillo

Senior Member
Location
South carolina
Joint Commissions for hospitals often adopt rules that exceed what is required by the NEC. So whether it is a code requirement or not I think they can compel the hospital to comply. If it is a code requirement I've missed it.
 

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
This doesn't violate any code sections I've ever read (which, I freely admit, does NOT include ALL code sections).

Typically, what happens is a breaker trips, and an employee goes to the panel to find the tripped breaker. They see a couple of handles in the "off" position and start turning them on. When that doesn't work, they look a little closer and find that the handle on one breaker is in the middle, so they cycle it off and back on, and the circuit comes back on.

A rule requiring all spare breakers to be turned off will only have a chance of working if the panels are only accessible to trained personnel who have been instructed to leave those breakers turned off. Most hospitals I've seen have panelboards flush-mounted in corridors, and they're kept unlocked in case a breaker trips and the hospital staff needs to turn it back on. Under those circumstances, it will be virtually impossible to keep all of the spare breakers turned off unless you pay somebody to go around and check/fix them at the end of the day.

That said, it is irritating as an engineer when I can't tell which circuits in an existing panel are spare just by looking at it. Since I'm not trained and qualified to remove the panel cover and look at the breaker terminations, I have no way of knowing if a breaker that's marked "spare" in the panel directory is really a spare, or if somebody connected a load to it and didn't bother to update the directory.

What I do next depends on the job. If there's an Electrician on site, I'll ask him to remove the panel cover so we can check. If not, I either assume the breaker is a spare and add a note to the plans directing the EC to verify that it really is a spare (knowing that if it's not there will be a change order). Or, if there's an available space in the panel, I might just specify a new breaker anyway, especially if the EC is likely to be one who is known for gouging on change orders.

All of this is a pain in the neck, but it's not an NEC violation.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
........ Most hospitals I've seen have panelboards flush-mounted in corridors, and they're kept unlocked in case a breaker trips and the hospital staff needs to turn it back on. Under those circumstances, it will be virtually impossible to keep all of the spare breakers turned off unless you pay somebody to go around and check/fix them at the end of the day...........


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Problem solved.
 

cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Does the NEC address the case of a circuit breaker being in the "on" position yet has no connection, even though the circuit directory may indicate the breaker as a spare? A recent hospital joint commission review of a local facility cited this and the hospital engineer has requested an opinion by our m & e firm.
Actually it's compliant because it is labeled "spare". 408.4-Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly.

And then 480sparky has a pretty good idea too.
 

roger

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Fl
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Retired Electrician
I think their concern is all the wasted amps that are continuously flowing out of the breakers when they're left on and not connected to anything. :D


Roger
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Walmart used to have spare breakers in just about every panel in new stores. Times must have changed. On the last remodel, they made us remove all spare breakers and add blanks. We stored the breakers we removed by the main service. The store manager had a no clutter policy and threw all of them out, a lot of them! :happyno:
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
It that specific to a given brand or is it generic? Who makes it? Wow much $?

I need to pass out a bunch!

RC

They're pretty generic when used on 1" 120v MCBs. Once you get into 277v breakers, you probably need to get something manufacturer-specific. Supply houses usually stock 'em. Cost? I don't know since it's been a long time since I bought any. But I can't imagine they're more than a lunch money.
 

roger

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Fl
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Retired Electrician
We buy them for around $2.00 to $2.50 ea. We use them mostly on F/A, Life Safety, and security circuits to keep them from being turned off.

Roger
 
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