What wiring method can be used to limit EMF in a home where people can "feel" EMF?

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davenoles

Member
Location
Oregon
What wiring method can be used to limit EMF in a home where people can "feel" EMF?

I have a home that the wife and child with Downs Syndrome are effected by the EMF fields in the house. I need to wire 2 new furnaces and heat pumps and am wondering what types of wire will be my best option.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
The "science answer" is that the magnetic field caused by current travelling down one wire to a load is cancelled out by the magnetic field returning to the source via the other wire, so long as you put both wires in the same conduit. Therefore, the wire type is not relevant. The "how do you convince this client of the science answer" is, "I have no idea."
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
I have a home that the wife and child with Downs Syndrome are effected by the EMF fields in the house. I need to wire 2 new furnaces and heat pumps and am wondering what types of wire will be my best option.

Hopefully Dennis Alwon will see this and respond. he is well versed on EMF.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
The "science answer" is that the magnetic field caused by current travelling down one wire to a load is cancelled out by the magnetic field returning to the source via the other wire, so long as you put both wires in the same conduit. Therefore, the wire type is not relevant. The "how do you convince this client of the science answer" is, "I have no idea."

I agree...
Their answer will be, But I read an article on the internet........
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
There is the science of this issue, and then there are the human factors of dealing with a potentially difficult customer.

It is clear to me that there is a huge psychological component to EMF sensitivity, but that it cannot simply be dismissed out of hand. I believe that while it is unlikely that EMFs encountered in the home actually cause direct injury, it is plausible to me that people can be sensitive to EMFs (sensitive meaning they can detect them), and can learn to feel distress when the sense them.

If you actually knew the mechanism by which your customer feels distress or symptoms, then you would know what to do to prevent the problem. But you don't know this. Maybe your customer is actually sensitive to electric fields. Or maybe they are very sensitive to '60 cycle hum' and are actually sensitive to the acoustic noise created by bits of metal in a 60Hz field.

One point for consideration: make sure that you have an agreement with your customer about what you will actually control/measure/be responsible for. It is entirely reasonable for you to guarantee that your install will have no unbalanced current (this is just a proper install), but you cannot guarantee that other equipment will not inject current into bonded metal and your new EGC. If your customer is sensitive to noise from a proper install, you should not be responsible for fixing that issue on your dime. (Again, this is a point for discussion, not professional advice.)

I think that you will need to show the customer that you will support them and believe that they have real sensations/experiences. But since this is not a fully understood field and you are not personally 'EMF sensitive', you can only guarantee/be responsible for things that you can actually measure. You might suggest a consultation with someone who specializes in this field to identify possible existing problems.

Karl Riley is a member of this board who specializes in EMF work, but he appears to be inactive. A google search for his name will provide you with some useful resources, including a book.

-Jon
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
IMO, mc cable or conduit will reduce any electromagnetic field's. Depending on the sensitivity of the individual you could get by with NM cable. I know that we are being told we must use mc in a home theater because of the electromagnetic field's from nm cable affect the electronics in the room.....

To be safe use mc and you should have no issue-- hospital grade would be better but not sure it is necessary
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Hopefully Dennis Alwon will see this and respond. he is well versed on EMF.

Thank you for the confidence in me. As winnie stated Karl is the expert but he has not been active here for quite awhile. I am still learning and it seems every now and then I find out new info. I had never heard about the electromagnetic field's affecting the home theater.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Thank you for the confidence in me. As winnie stated Karl is the expert but he has not been active here for quite awhile. I am still learning and it seems every now and then I find out new info. I had never heard about the electromagnetic field's affecting the home theater.
There are some electrical lines running down the side of my property next to my house. I assume they are medium voltage. I don't know if they affect me adversely but they definitely affected my old CRT televisions, and my single coil guitar pickups howl at 60hz if I hold the guitar parallel to the direction the lines run with gain way up on my amp.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
my suspicion is that some people can hear a much lower level of 60 cycle hum than others can and that may be what is bothering them.

i have seen a lot of internet stuff on this but no actual science that supports the idea that low level magnetic fields can cause human illness, or even discomfort.

it is like the people that think cell phones are harmful. the evidence, such as it is, is very skimpy that it is harmful. but that does not stop people.

the anti-vaccine people have a similar lack of science hurdle. but they believe it so much that the lack of actual science to support that position does not matter.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
There are some electrical lines running down the side of my property next to my house. I assume they are medium voltage. I don't know if they affect me adversely but they definitely affected my old CRT televisions, and my single coil guitar pickups howl at 60hz if I hold the guitar parallel to the direction the lines run with gain way up on my amp.
So either the currents in the wires are not totally balanced for some reason or the wires are far enough apart that the cancelation is not complete at your house.
These are separated overhead lines?
If so there can be significant net fields up to tens of the distance between wires.
Same for electric fields, only worse for them. But the electrical fields can be shielded more easily.
Just get the utility to twist the wires. :angel:
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
my suspicion is that some people can hear a much lower level of 60 cycle hum than others can and that may be what is bothering them.

i have seen a lot of internet stuff on this but no actual science that supports the idea that low level magnetic fields can cause human illness, or even discomfort.

it is like the people that think cell phones are harmful. the evidence, such as it is, is very skimpy that it is harmful. but that does not stop people.

the anti-vaccine people have a similar lack of science hurdle. but they believe it so much that the lack of actual science to support that position does not matter.
The total lack of scientific evidence to support anti vaccine is prima facie evidence of how effective the conspiracy is. :(
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The total lack of scientific evidence to support anti vaccine is prima facie evidence of how effective the conspiracy is. :(

There are some interesting correlations between some of the problems purported to be caused by certain vaccines and vaccine usage. The problem is that the vaccines are in such common use that the correlation may not mean all that much. It's not like the companies have any incentive to find that kind of research.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
There are some interesting correlations between some of the problems purported to be caused by certain vaccines and vaccine usage. The problem is that the vaccines are in such common use that the correlation may not mean all that much. It's not like the companies have any incentive to find that kind of research.
One of the largest statistical correlations between vaccines containing mercury and autism is the result of the common age of first detection of autism until recent improvements is also the age at which the vaccines in question are administered.
What really astounds me is that those who correlate autism with thimerosal preserved vaccines continue to find supporting cases long after the mercury was removed from the preparation.
 

robbietan

Senior Member
Location
Antipolo City
There are some electrical lines running down the side of my property next to my house. I assume they are medium voltage. I don't know if they affect me adversely but they definitely affected my old CRT televisions, and my single coil guitar pickups howl at 60hz if I hold the guitar parallel to the direction the lines run with gain way up on my amp.

been doing some measurements in that field and generally we see that CRT TVs are affected (screen flicker) if exposed to an EMF of around 80 milli gauss. The trouble is the health standard for EMF is 833 milligauss.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
So either the currents in the wires are not totally balanced for some reason or the wires are far enough apart that the cancelation is not complete at your house.
These are separated overhead lines?
If so there can be significant net fields up to tens of the distance between wires.
Same for electric fields, only worse for them. But the electrical fields can be shielded more easily.
Just get the utility to twist the wires. :angel:

The wires (three of them) are separated by about 3 feet in a triangle. They are up about 20 feet and about 30 feet from my house.

I actually got the utility company to come out and measure the field in my garage/music studio. They were surprised at the intensity of the field but they said they couldn't do anything about it.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
One of our lab technicians brought suit against the company in the mid '80s claiming that electric fields encountered in testing caused his leukemia diagnosed via our company yearly physicals.
We all had yearly physicals 'just in case' as an air force Colonel involved with EMP testing had been diagnosed with leukemia a few years earlier. Emf and power lines and illness were first being touted at about that time. Think the employee is still alive, as the diagnosis was very early. He had been working the area less than 3 years, one of the doctor's data points was than there were no recorded cases of anyone ever having been diagnosed with leukemia in less than 3 years after know exposure to even IONIZING radiation.

Saw lots of evidence presented in the course of pre-trial (settled out of court just before trial) that there was no emi effect on humans at less than UV frequencies except for heating at high field strengths (10's of kV per meter).

Personally have been in 2-3 kV/meter electric fields at up to 100 Mhz and could never physically/biologically detect anything (and were trying to detect any sense organ signals - no smell, no taste, no hearing, no visualy blurring, no palpitations) , household fields are in the few single digit volts/meter even next to induction cooktop. Welders are continually in high magnetic fields.

Just a few hundred volts/meter electric field will make any unshielded CRT go totally fuzzy, or create negative time sweeps on a scope.

tidbits:
- homing pigeons are known to lose there way near dc power lines (or magnesite deposits), indicating a capability of detecting electric and magnetic fields
- one co-worker who lives adjacent to 345kV line can get 1/8" sparks across a gap in his galvanized gutters
- per wiki, The majority of provocation blind trials to date have found that self-described sufferers of electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to distinguish between exposure to real and fake electromagnetic fields- personal experience that if a welding cable is within a foot of a CFL lamp it will fry the CFL (tore one down and found the failure mode was magnetic saturation of one leg of the tiny inverter transformer)
- have one grandson that started complaining in our house about a stabbing noise just after I'd installed some new electronic ballasts; tested grandson's hearing and found he could hear up to 23 kHz!, so the 20 kHz ballast switching frequency was audible to him, but no one else.

That all said, the previous comments about dealing with the customer and the customers perceptions (does not make any difference if it is real or not) are the main points to consider for the OP's situation, nothing else matters, e.g don't bother me with facts. Twisted wires in steel (not pvc) conduit are a good first step if the customer can be made to believe any physics facts - eg. a sensitive field strength meter on a NM cable vs next to conduit. Follow whatever techniques the customer proposes (and is willing to pay for) if they make sense or not, it is always the customer perception is 'correct' vs. physics. As an alternate, one could propose an Amish lifestyle?

Case history of sensitive lines: in the late '70's had to run a 300 ft power line and data lines near a Navy satcom station on Ohau. Site was going to have 50kV/meter EMP tests run, so put all the lines in rigid conduit - with all the couplings welded to assure continuity. No problems with the power or data lines.

BTW, FWIW, personally am getting a high power 130 ft cell tower installed in our OWN backyard.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
been doing some measurements in that field and generally we see that CRT TVs are affected (screen flicker) if exposed to an EMF of around 80 milli gauss. The trouble is the health standard for EMF is 833 milligauss.

If that is the health standard I am surprised. I was told anything higher than 4 miligauss is unsafe. Ohers have said 8 mgauss. I have never heard of 833 mgauss as being the standard. That is extremely high.

BTW there has been some studies that equate high levels of electromagnetic field's with childhood Lukemia not adult Lukemia.
 

davenoles

Member
Location
Oregon
Thank you for the confidence in me. As winnie stated Karl is the expert but he has not been active here for quite awhile. I am still learning and it seems every now and then I find out new info. I had never heard about the electromagnetic field's affecting the home theater.

Thanks to all the took the time to give input. Since the customer is familiar with the issue, I believe he will have some suggestions too, but wanted to go in with some sort to idea myself. You have provided the needed info for me to do just that........thanks
 

StarCat

Industrial Engineering Tech
Location
Moab, UT USA
Occupation
Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
A very telling Thread

A very telling Thread

my suspicion is that some people can hear a much lower level of 60 cycle hum than others can and that may be what is bothering them.

i have seen a lot of internet stuff on this but no actual science that supports the idea that low level magnetic fields can cause human illness, or even discomfort.

it is like the people that think cell phones are harmful. the evidence, such as it is, is very skimpy that it is harmful. but that does not stop people.

the anti-vaccine people have a similar lack of science hurdle. but they believe it so much that the lack of actual science to support that position does not matter.


The amount of programming and disinformation that people have bought into is truly staggering.
There is all manner of highly suppressed evidence rooted fully in science that vaccination is implicated in all manner debilitating conditions which are onset afterwards. The main one being autism and new evidence is current on MS.
Do you really think William Thompson at the CDC had no credible science supporting his findings?
Follow the big money and note who Dr, Julie Gerberding went to work for.
Vaccination was later designed to cripple the immune system and make people drug dependent.
I will add dependent on toxitrophic drugs that don't heal anything and don't address the root cause of sickness.
The western medical paradigm is the biggest fraud in our times next to the federal reserve.
Its mega expensive and is not curing people on the whole.

Brian Hooker noted the literal flood of mercury coming out of his son's body after taking matters into his own hands after the boy developed autism.

For the full story see:
Brian Hooker - CDC Cover-up of Vaccine & Autism Link on Red Ice Creations
November 10, 2014
Brian Hooker has had a distinguished career as a chemical engineer, managing a large-scale systems biology research program at Batelle/Pacific Northwest National Laboratory in Richland.
All very scientific.
 
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