Special purpose

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Esthy

Senior Member
That breaker is discontinue, this breaker is for an electric furnace in a mobile home. We purchased a double pole 60 amps breaker and 2 single 40 amps breakers to assemble and use it, we need to remove the tie on the 60 and drill through the handles of the four breakers to install the tie with the steel rod, so that "it can be a 4 poles breaker"
I have some doubt about this, as this is a field modification and wonder if, is there any short the whole breaker will trip.
I appreciate your input - Thank
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Original looks like a 4-pole independent trip combo... which means all 4-poles may not trip on single fault. Would have to find manufacturer documentation to confirm.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Sorry, I don't understand, how it can be an independant tripping with the tie?
From UL molded case circuit breaker marking and application guide:
40. Independent Trip ? A 2-pole circuit breaker that does not have an internal common trip feature is marked ?Independent Trip? or ?No Common Trip.? An external handle tie alone does not qualify as a common trip mechanism ? a breaker of this type is marked to indicate it is an independent trip breaker
http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CircuitBreaker_MG.pdf

Note that is from current edition... don't know whether or what marking was required back when that breaker was made.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
This breaker is on the furnace and power is supply from 100 amps breaker in the main panel. I have my doubt in using this new configuration, but I don't find any information besides your professional one. Will you use it without more information.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
This breaker is on the furnace and power is supply from 100 amps breaker in the main panel. I have my doubt in using this new configuration, but I don't find any information besides your professional one. Will you use it without more information.
If it was the furnace in my house, I would without hesitation.

Doing it professionally gets into the legal side of the issue. If it were a standard electrical repair, I'd do it in a heart beat. But being an equipment modification, I'd probably ask the homeowner to sign an affidavit stating the known and uncertain facts, along with a waiver of liability and warranty. No great loss if they refuse... just wouldn't do it. If they sign, I have no idea how much would hold up in court, but at least you'd be prepared as much as humanly possible... ;)
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Sorry, I don't understand, how it can be an independant tripping with the tie?

If one pole trips, the "trip free" feature will allow that pole to trip even if the handle stays in the closed position because of an external force.
So it comes down to whether the free tripping force on that handle is enough to move the other three handles to the tripped position.
Usually this will not happen.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Thank, I read the link and now I remember, well going to 72 old the mind is the first to go (LOL) and the link clarified it to me. Thank again!
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I'd probably ask the homeowner to sign an affidavit stating the known and uncertain facts, along with a waiver of liability and warranty. No great loss if they refuse... just wouldn't do it. If they sign, I have no idea how much would hold up in court, but at least you'd be prepared as much as humanly possible... ;)

My guess is that the courts would hold that as a tacit admission that you knew the installation was not quite kosher. I doubt there are many courts in the land who would accept such an affidavit as holding the installer clear of liability. The HO has no training or experience in making such a decision and the electrician would be presumed to have it.

I think the court would end up looking at this as the electrician was either incompetent or he installed something in a way he knew was not "right". I doubt that you would get any sympathy from the court on this at all.

OTOH, what is the downside? Does the fact that it is not a common trip unit make the installation unsafe in some way?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
My guess is that the courts would hold that as a tacit admission that you knew the installation was not quite kosher. I doubt there are many courts in the land who would accept such an affidavit as holding the installer clear of liability. The HO has no training or experience in making such a decision and the electrician would be presumed to have it.

I think the court would end up looking at this as the electrician was either incompetent or he installed something in a way he knew was not "right". I doubt that you would get any sympathy from the court on this at all.
I'm going to disagree... and it this is the reason why I included the affidavit stating the facts, both known and unknown. As an electrician I would do my due diligence trying to the best of my ability to assure adequate substitution based on industry standards, for an unobtainable out-of-market part. Not being the design engineer of record and not privy to those parameters, I cannot ascertain equivalent performance, only reasonably equivalent performance. HVAC service technicians face this potential problem practically on a daily basis without batting an eye. The homeowner opts for this fix most likely to avoid the cost of replacing the entire furnace. The liability is on him.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
The breaker label says it is a SPECIAL PURPOSE breaker not for General Use. There is no telling what is going on inside that housing.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The breaker label says it is a SPECIAL PURPOSE breaker not for General Use. There is no telling what is going on inside that housing.
Meaning it is an OEM part made for the furnace manufacturer and maybe even something at the time could not even be purchased from an ITE distributor.

My guess is the furnace manufacturer either can still provide this part, has one that replaces it, or has other recommended item(s) for replacement - and my guess is it will be two 2 pole units with no master tie, but maybe with additional labels indicating that both handles need switched off for disconnection of all input power.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
I am getting the breaker (the old) tomorrow from the thecnician, he mentioned that one of the breakers shows "no continuity" but after he flipped back and forth the breaker worked, but he is not confident with it and he wanted to replace it. But thinking now I agreed with all of you that it is an independent trips breaker and I think I will be able to read the label. If this is the case, then the breaker is good and it made it job of tripping. I hope this is the case. I will let you know the results and I bet is according to your remarks.
 
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