Inspector wants me to do what to a GFI!?

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RLyons

Senior Member
So I was called to go to a covered porch which a homeowner wired.

I asked the homeowner what the insp did he said he had a plug tester and the gfi didn't trip, of course it didn't there is no ground.

So I check and redo the sloppy wiring and tell the customer it checks out from what I can see put a no egc sticker on it and tell customer to have insp call if he has any questions.

Now I'm being told insp want a jumper placed from the neutral to the ground screw on the gfi. Wait, what? Is there something new going on that I'm not aware of? He also said in a 2 wire application the load side of the gfi doesn't protect downstream devices.

Where do I start to fight this? Gfi manufacturer?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Now I'm being told insp want a jumper placed from the neutral to the ground screw on the gfi. Wait, what? Is there something new going on that I'm not aware of?

No, there is nothing you are missing. I would refuse to do that, it is a dangerous thing to do. It is also a code violation. If something goes wrong it will be you on the hook for it.

He also said in a 2 wire application the load side of the gfi doesn't protect downstream devices.

He is mistaken or you are getting the wrong info from the customer.

Like mgookin I suggest talking with the inspector directly and respectfully. In a moment I will post some code sections you can show him.
 

Daja7

Senior Member
GFCI can be used on 2 wire circuit and will trip, Neutral to ground jumper will show ground on the tester but it certainly is not correct.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
First there is 406.3(D)(3) which tells us exactly how to handle this situation. It is not an optional section, it is full of 'shalls'.

Then there is 250.24(A)(5) which tells us in no uncertain terms not to do what you are being told to.

(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally non?current-carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be reconnected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise per-mitted in this article.

Good luck, I would go over his head if a friendly discussion with him does not clear it up.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Tell him not just no but, HELL NO, then report him to the agency that issues his inspector license.

It's one thing for an inspector to allow something like white pvc that might already be in place verses making a homeowner trench and bury new conduit but, to instruct someone to create a hazard is beyond comprehension.

Roger
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Tell him not just no but, HELL NO, then report him to the agency that issues his inspector license.

It's one thing for an inspector to allow something like white pvc that might already be in place verses making a homeowner trench and bury new conduit but, to instruct someone to create a hazard is beyond comprehension.

Roger

This is a homeowner telling the electrician what the inspector said -- confirm his instructions before any actions would be taken -- Roger, are your inspectors required to have at least a journeyman license? must be more to this white PVC story
 
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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Roger, are your inspectors required to have at least a journeyman license?
Actually it's a bit more than that, click HERE for the requirements for the different classifications. Are you saying that Jmans card is all you need to be an inspector in CO?

must be more to this white PVC story
No, just something I thought of as an example but, since you seem to think there is let me run this by you.

Let's say this Happy Home Owner is going to install a post light and has UF on hand but when he starts to dig he finds a whithe pvc plumbing pipe abandoned and decides to use it as a sleeve for his UF, would you red tag it?

Roger
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This is a homeowner telling the electrician what the inspector said -- confirm his instructions before any actions would be taken -- Roger, are your inspectors required to have at least a journeyman license? must be more to this white PVC story

Definitely confirm the homeowner knows what the inspector was trying to tell him before coming down too hard on the inspector, HO may have misunderstood something. But if the inspector is actually suggesting bootlegging the EGC from the grounded conductor - he does need to be talked down to, even without codes, if you know theory it is a bad situation waiting to happen.

Actually it's a bit more than that, click HERE for the requirements for the different classifications. Are you saying that Jmans card is all you need to be an inspector in CO?

No, just something I thought of as an example but, since you seem to think there is let me run this by you.

Let's say this Happy Home Owner is going to install a post light and has UF on hand but when he starts to dig he finds a whithe pvc plumbing pipe abandoned and decides to use it as a sleeve for his UF, would you red tag it?

Roger
Well a red tag shows up better on the white pipe then a white tag:D
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
:cool:
Actually it's a bit more than that, click HERE for the requirements for the different classifications. Are you saying that Jmans card is all you need to be an inspector in CO?
Minimum requirements for a state inspector is a journeyman license. FYI I've had my ME for 18 years prior to the inspector gig, and hold all of the ICC certifications in electrical. Not sure all qualifications are a bit more though in NC
Electrical Inspector, Level I minimum; at least two years of electrical installation or inspection experience while working under a licensed electrical contractor (2 year apprentice) this is good for up to 20,000 sq ft basic commercial, & unlimited 1 &2 family dwellings.
Electrical Inspector, Level II minimum at least two years of experience with a probationary Level II electrical inspection certificate inspecting electrical installations on a minimum of two Level II buildings ( Inspector I under surveillance)
Electrical Inspector, Level III minimum at least one year of experience with a probationary Level III electrical inspection certificate inspecting the electrical installations of a minimum of two Level III buildings ( Inspector II under surveillance)
Or
a license as a professional engineer with design, construction, or inspection experience on Level III buildings and specialization in electrical engineering ( college trained electrical engineer with only design experience)
North Carolina could have a level III inspector that has 2 years of installation & 3 years of supervised experience which is the minimum time it takes to become a Colorado Master Electrician. Or an e
EE with no field experience.

No, just something I thought of as an example but, since you seem to think there is let me run this by you.

Let's say this Happy Home Owner is going to install a post light and has UF on hand but when he starts to dig he finds a whithe pvc plumbing pipe abandoned and decides to use it as a sleeve for his UF, would you red tag it?
Lets see --- Uf if buried to the min depth does not have to be installed in conduit(12" 120v max 30A), if the DWV pipe is not connected to a j box at either end it is not considered a raceway, Trying to find the violation. Now run thwn we might have a conversation, but in the circumstances involved & the pipe being sch 40 and most likely not able to be dug up, I would make the best decision possible -- the main reason I will not say yes or no is that some would set the answer in concrete as acceptable all the time & field judgements are specific to each individual set of values.

Roger
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician

You need to work on your quoting. ;):)


FYI I've had my ME for 18 years prior to the inspector gig, and hold all of the ICC certifications in electrical.
But is all that required in CO or just a Jmans card?


Anyways,

Lets see --- Uf if buried to the min depth does not have to be installed in conduit(12" 120v max 30A), if the DWV pipe is not connected to a j box at either end it is not considered a raceway, Trying to find the violation. Now run thwn we might have a conversation, but in the circumstances involved & the pipe being sch 40 and most likely not able to be dug up, I would make the best decision possible --
And that is the point I was making in my first post
the main reason I will not say yes or no is that some would set the answer in concrete as acceptable all the time & field judgements are specific to each individual set of values.
I agree with your reasoning and this is probably one time (although not really necessary) using 90.4 for the particular instance would make sense.

Roger
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
from post 11# "Minimum requirements for a state inspector is a journeyman license."
All I did was copy & paste from the document you sent -- what was misquoted? the document said only one of the examples would meet the qualifications
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
what was misquoted?
I didn't say anything was misquoted, I said you need to work on your quoting. Look at the post and tell me how to distinguish who said what. The way it is done makes it appear as though I said everything in the post.

You need to break up the points of interest so that you can address them separately and followers of the thread know what part is your reply.


Now that I went back and read it again I see you did point out the comparison of the level III and CO Master.

Roger
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Find out if that's what the inspector really said. There's a chance he told the HO something completely different and so involved that the HO didn't want to do. So HO fires up google and finds somebody that says you can make the tester say what you want it to say by jumping the grounded and the ground.

If the inspector confirms the story, ask him if he'll sign a waiver absolving you of all guilt when somebody gets electrocuted. When inspector says no, say why not, or when inspector starts to stutter say, so you admit maybe that's not the right info, etc.
 

RLyons

Senior Member
I thought I was the only one who easily gets OT :p

Further clarification

HO told me about insp use of plug tester only

After initial visit Boss told me insp required me to return and add said jumper from neutral to ground

I said to boss that doesn't sound kosher and then posted here.

After reading
First there is 406.3(D)(3) which tells us exactly how to handle this situation. It is not an optional section, it is full of 'shalls'.

Then there is 250.24(A)(5) which tells us in no uncertain terms not to do what you are being told to.

Good luck, I would go over his head if a friendly discussion with him does not clear it up.

Boss and I call insp respectfully question what he is asking, result is insp will look into further and get back.

Call customer and inform him that we disagree with insp and are waiting on a reply.

If anything I'm curious as to where the insp even got such a idea and how easily my boss said go do that without question.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I thought I was the only one who easily gets OT :p

Further clarification

HO told me about insp use of plug tester only

After initial visit Boss told me insp required me to return and add said jumper from neutral to ground

I said to boss that doesn't sound kosher and then posted here.

After reading


Boss and I call insp respectfully question what he is asking, result is insp will look into further and get back.

Call customer and inform him that we disagree with insp and are waiting on a reply.

If anything I'm curious as to where the insp even got such a idea and how easily my boss said go do that without question.
You deserve a pat on the back for standing up to what is right.

Inspector obviously don't know squat on theory or he wouldn't need to look into this issue any further.

Your boss, may have same issue as inspector or had other reasons to just give in, though he probably should consider liability issues before whatever else did prompt him to give in. I'd rather leave it alone and have records of what happened/what was said then to make a modification of that nature.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
First there is 406.3(D)(3) which tells us exactly how to handle this situation. It is not an optional section, it is full of 'shalls'.

Then there is 250.24(A)(5) which tells us in no uncertain terms not to do what you are being told to. ............


I'll toss in QCYU of the UL White Book for more ammunition.
 

norcal

Senior Member
A bit off topic but ever since I cut a what thought was a sprinkler line to get it out of the way while repairing a broken line & found it had a 14/2 UF in it, since then I have a really bad attitude about using PVC water pipe for conduit, in that case it was not live but when your digging one would hope that the pipe color means something, but in reality, it's no different then finding someone has used green for a hot, you can't assume anything, and if you do it can get you killed.
 
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