Well, it worked didn't it!

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fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
The other day I was asked to look at an air compressor, some other people in my shop are tasked with doing PM's on this compressor. I was told that the motor starter was stuck and could not be manually operated. The air compressor, located at the back wall is a 60 gal stand-up, 480v 3p, is in a small room 8 to 10 foot deep by 5 to 6 foot wide, also in this room along the left wall is the main water line and back-flow preventer. The back-flow preventer was not working properly and draining water on the floor. There is a drain in the middle of the floor but, for some reason the water is not going to the drain(obviously the drain is higher than the rest of the floor) but going to where the compressor is sitting and under the wall into the building. I turned off the disconnect and removed the cover from the motor starter, there was a 3 pole definite purpose contactor with a 208-230v coil, one side of the coil went to the equipment ground and the other side was connected to the pressure switch which was connected to "A" phase. The coil had burnt up as one may have expected, I know who the person is that did this, and this is not the first time that he has done something similar to this. I have brought this to the attention of my supervisor in the past and this most recent situation. In the past I have told him how dangerous it is to use the equipment ground as a neutral, his reply "well it worked didn't it!".
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Yes it worked but when someone gets hurt I wonder what he would say. If your supervisor has that attitude then you are in deep do-do over there.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That is one of our trades biggest problems ... you can have something that works just fine but is not safe...and there are too many installers who have no idea what they are doing, so as long as it works they are ok with it.
 

fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
I have tried to explain how this could get someone hurt/killed, could some of you maybe comment in your words what makes this unsafe?
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
That is one of our trades biggest problems ... you can have something that works just fine but is not safe...and there are too many installers who have no idea what they are doing, so as long as it works they are ok with it.

Sure. If, for whatever reason, you lose the Equipment Ground to the unit, it will obviously stop because the contactor will no linger pull in and require service. The person servicing it will touch the unit, which is now at 277V and receive a nasty, if not deadly shock. Ask this same person if he would eliminate the Grounded Conductor in a Multi-Wire Branch circuit and just use the ground instead, "because it works". This guy is gonna kill someone someday taking shortcuts.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
I don’t know if you have the equivalent to our HSE (Health and Safety Executive). In your position I would be on the phone pretty damn quick if I was told “well it works” so it’s OK.

The HSE has draconian powers and can order an immediate cessation of work until things are put right.
They issued an “improvement order” on one of our plants. An electrician had pointed out a switchboard was dangerous and got the “well it works” reply. In frustration he phoned the HSE. We had two weeks to replace the entire board.
If they say jump, you jump.
 

fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
Sure. If, for whatever reason, you lose the Equipment Ground to the unit, it will obviously stop because the contactor will no linger pull in and require service. The person servicing it will touch the unit, which is now at 277V and receive a nasty, if not deadly shock. Ask this same person if he would eliminate the Grounded Conductor in a Multi-Wire Branch circuit and just use the ground instead, "because it works". This guy is gonna kill someone someday taking shortcuts.

This guy does not understand the purpose of an equipment ground, let alone what a multi-wire branch circuit is.
 

fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
I don’t know if you have the equivalent to our HSE (Health and Safety Executive). In your position I would be on the phone pretty damn quick if I was told “well it works” so it’s OK.

The HSE has draconian powers and can order an immediate cessation of work until things are put right.
They issued an “improvement order” on one of our plants. An electrician had pointed out a switchboard was dangerous and got the “well it works” reply. In frustration he phoned the HSE. We had two weeks to replace the entire board.
If they say jump, you jump.

I have in the past reported to base safety numerous unsafe electrical conditions, someone from base safety will contact me and we will go to the location of the violation. The first thing I ask is how familiar are you with the NEC, there answer is "a little" to "not at all". I will show them in the NEC what the requirements are for this electrical installation, for instance another shop had constructed a outdoor 200a service, used a indoor rated SE connector and packed duct seal around it, only drove one ground rod, ran 50a branch circuit from panel, in PVC, 3" in the ground to battery charging station. They in turn will file a report with their recommendations to correct the violations, guess who gets to fix it?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
So you are dealing with electrical work on a US military base?

I have no idea how things work in those cases but I do deal with this kind of problem with businesses all the time.

Step 1) I try to explain it, if their eyes glaze over or otherwise seem uninterested I give up.

Step 2) I consider just doing what I know is right if I can get the company I work for paid for it.

Step 3) if I can't fix it I refuse to do unsafe work.

Step 4) I forget about it and move on with my life, not my problem to fix all electrical issues or try to get others to understand safety issues.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
I did some work with a member of this forum a few years ago. Good guy, I'm not saying anything bad about him. But there were times where he had that attitude. "Does it work? Great, clean up and let's go."

What's funny is one day he sort of got mad at me for running romex along the back of a display at a bicycle shop. I think I said to him, "Does it work?"

It was a hacky day, for sure.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
I’ve done all kinds of things to get a plant up and running but always ensured what I’ve done is safe and fully documented. Usually it would be a case of no spares to hand so you use what you have.

Deliberately taking short cuts as in the OP would result in my dismissal and quite rightly so.
 

fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
We know who gets to fix it but what do you do? Turn a blind eye and live with your conscience and the consequences?

Absolutely not, I report any safety/code violations to my supervisor, tell him how it should have been done, then fix it the way it should have been done the first time.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Absolutely not, I report any safety/code violations to my supervisor, tell him how it should have been done, then fix it the way it should have been done the first time.

Super important: document your notifications, and keep a copy off site. Come the day, at least you'll be able to document your efforts.
 

Tony S

Senior Member
Absolutely not, I report any safety/code violations to my supervisor, tell him how it should have been done, then fix it the way it should have been done the first time.

:thumbsup: That my friend, is one of the really annoying things about industrial work and a reason I'm glad I retired.

“Why am I having to do this? Why wasn’t it right in the first place?”

I’ve done plant commissioning many times, the above two statements were the bain of my life. Press the button and it either doesn’t work or something completely unexpected happens.





I’ll now wait for iwire to jump in with “that wouldn’t happen here because of the NIC code.”
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
:thumbsup: That my friend, is one of the really annoying things about industrial work and a reason I'm glad I retired.

“Why am I having to do this? Why wasn’t it right in the first place?”

I’ve done plant commissioning many times, the above two statements were the bain of my life. Press the button and it either doesn’t work or something completely unexpected happens.





I’ll now wait for iwire to jump in with “that wouldn’t happen here because of the NIC code.”

Short cuts happen everywhere Tony, it's why they pay guys like you and me. To find them and fix them. They are not the bain of my life, they are what feeds my family.

You have taught me something though, the sense of self importance many electrcians display is not limited to the states. :D
 
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