Anybody changing the way they wire kitchens NEC2014

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al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
And on the refrigerator? Really? If they go to bed and don't know it popped everything in their freezer is bad when they realize it!
We now must pro-actively market power loss alarms to provide the protection needed to protect our customer's lifestyle from the Code required safety protection, in order to protect our business from our customer's litigation.

Looking forward to the 2017 NEC that will require AFCI on ANY heating apparatus that is powered from 15 or 20 Amp 120 Volt circuits, and considering how quickly a building can freeze up in many parts of this country, the power loss alarm will need to be part of the Internet of Things. . .

Of course, we'll need a backup power loss alarm on a backup Internet of Things connection to cover the AFCI interruption of the primary internet connection equipment.

Hey!! Nothing personal. . . just "good" business. :angel::angel:
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
We now must pro-actively market power loss alarms to provide the protection needed to protect our customer's lifestyle from the Code required safety protection, in order to protect our business from our customer's litigation.

Looking forward to the 2017 NEC that will require AFCI on ANY heating apparatus that is powered from 15 or 20 Amp 120 Volt circuits, and considering how quickly a building can freeze up in many parts of this country, the power loss alarm will need to be part of the Internet of Things. . .

Of course, we'll need a backup power loss alarm on a backup Internet of Things connection to cover the AFCI interruption of the primary internet connection equipment.

Hey!! Nothing personal. . . just "good" business. :angel::angel:

huh? lol :?
 

cad99

Member
Location
ND
The difference between a afci and the dual function is only five dollars. Can't buy a cheap gfci from Menard's for that price.


Living the dream one nightmare at a time
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
I believe it is against the NEC to put the kitchen fridge on a gfci. At least, I know I've been called on it in the way past.
Second, you guys are all way over-paying for material. Do you not talk to your supply house about pricing? You know can do that, right? I pay $9 for a Leviton TR 15a gfci. The manager at my loca North Coast got me set up on special pricing from Siemens and I pay $38 for 15/20a arc and $45 for 15/20a DF

I was talking to an EC who has super duper, ultra special pricing from Square D (high volume, long time Sq D user). He told me he pays $2 for a QO breaker and $17 for a QO arc fault breaker. :eek:
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
We now must pro-actively market power loss alarms to provide the protection needed to protect our customer's lifestyle from the Code required safety protection, in order to protect our business from our customer's litigation.

Looking forward to the 2017 NEC that will require AFCI on ANY heating apparatus that is powered from 15 or 20 Amp 120 Volt circuits, and considering how quickly a building can freeze up in many parts of this country, the power loss alarm will need to be part of the Internet of Things. . .

I said it before and I'll say it again - I'll never install AFCI protection on heating equipment, no matter what the code requires.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
I said it before and I'll say it again - I'll never install AFCI protection on heating equipment, no matter what the code requires.

Progress is painful. Every time new safety requirements are compelled by the local authorities it's the same tune over and over again. Then we all get used to it and the old farts retire and the new farts look back at our insanely unsafe practices with awe and disgust.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Progress is painful. Every time new safety requirements are compelled by the local authorities it's the same tune over and over again. Then we all get used to it and the old farts retire and the new farts look back at our insanely unsafe practices with awe and disgust.

Don't think so on this one!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If they ever get AFCI to do what they say it will do we might look back on it differently someday. Right now it still needs work.

They built some cars back in the 80's that many of us would claim to be embarrassed to have ever owned. Yet now some of those are collector's items.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If they ever get AFCI to do what they say it will do we might look back on it differently someday. Right now it still needs work.

They built some cars back in the 80's that many of us would claim to be embarrassed to have ever owned. Yet now some of those are collector's items.


Yeah , Collector's

Just because they are collected does not mean they are well built.
 

Jerseydaze

Senior Member
We now must pro-actively market power loss alarms to provide the protection needed to protect our customer's lifestyle from the Code required safety protection, in order to protect our business from our customer's litigation.

Looking forward to the 2017 NEC that will require AFCI on ANY heating apparatus that is powered from 15 or 20 Amp 120 Volt circuits, and considering how quickly a building can freeze up in many parts of this country, the power loss alarm will need to be part of the Internet of Things. . .

Of course, we'll need a backup power loss alarm on a backup Internet of Things connection to cover the AFCI interruption of the primary internet connection equipment.

Hey!! Nothing personal. . . just "good" business. :angel::angel:

Can I run a 30 amp 120 volt circuit to a boiler?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Can I run a 30 amp 120 volt circuit to a boiler?
Be careful on this one - you must follow 210 part II for minimum conductor sizing - maximum conductor and/or overcurrent protection are not really part of general rules except for multioutlet circuits, but the appliance may still be marked with a maximum overcurrent protection rating, if that be 15 or 20 amps then it will need AFCI protection, at least it sounds like it will in 2017 NEC, it will be dependent on location of the outlet in earlier codes.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
There is almost no valid argument that refutes the implementation of AFCIs. Yeah they add additional cost, and yeah they don't always work well with SOME appliances, and yeah they're a pain in the ass, but if the appliances or the electrical installation causes an AFCI to trip, there is a problem with the wiring or appliance. To me, it keeps electrical installations more precise and free of secondary neutral-to-case connections, which can be dangerous.

It's true that the data are not in to properly determine the efficacy of AFCI-protected homes, but there is indication that the number of house fires due to arcing are decreasing each year because of AFCIs being required. So even if it stops one house fire and saves one life, then you can't put a price on a $40 breaker vs. a human life or someone's house!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
There is the issue. At some point the same money would save more lives if invested somewhere else.
And would you really have the population of the country collectively spend $100,000,000 to save one life? If you do more people will die from malnutrition or limited medical care.

When the police wrongfully kill someone they usually pay less than $10,000,000.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
There is the issue. At some point the same money would save more lives if invested somewhere else.
And would you really have the population of the country collectively spend $100,000,000 to save one life? If you do more people will die from malnutrition or limited medical care.

That is an extreme exaggeration and contributes nothing to the debate.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Can I run a 30 amp 120 volt circuit to a boiler?

Most residential boilers and furnaces specify a maximum circuit ampacity of 15 amps.

The only relief from AFCI rules on heating equipment are in areas that use mostly 240 volt heat pumps and heat strips (Florida and Arizona come to mind.)
 
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