Testing old wiring before arc fault protection

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mbrooke

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United States
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Which is exactly where acual electrians work. :thumbsup:

I don't follow :blink::blink:


Im not saying this section lets a standard breaker do all the protection even up to the load. My point is that the first 50 feet and under are protected from arc faults inside the wall. Cords and the rest by an outlet AFCI.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
what a long strange trip it's been....

what a long strange trip it's been....

In reality sure, but UL reports (along with others) have openly stated they do mitigate arc faults when the fault current can trip the breaker magnetically. Hence why the 50 and 70 ft rules were imposed in (A) (4) (b).

As you are well aware Mr MBrooke, those are NOT arbitrary distances.

They are inherent impedances constituting trip levels.

Now, how many times have we posted these UL reports? I'm loosing track......:(

There are also UL , as well as CSPC reports focused on trip levels .....

Then there is the slew of OCPD patents , all of which addressed trip levels

oh ,and....if i failed to mention it, the entire (NEC & CEC) OCPD industry has been obsessively focused on trip levels

THAT SAID, find me a trade rag article , IAEI dissertation, Manufacturers public memo , NEC document , (et all bureaucratic trade entities) openly opining on the validity of lower trip levels

thx for playin'!....:)

~RJ~
 

mbrooke

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Location
United States
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Technician
As you are well aware Mr MBrooke, those are NOT arbitrary distances.

They are inherent impedances constituting trip levels.

They were derived by UL and used by the CMP to establish that code rule.


Now, how many times have we posted these UL reports? I'm loosing track......:(

There are also UL , as well as CSPC reports focused on trip levels .....



Before AFCIs the campaign was to lower the magnet trip threshold of standard breakers. The claim made (though only half substantiated) was that short circuits take longer to clear on thermal trip and in turn can start a fire. The only part that was confirmed is that yes, when you short wires together thermal trip takes longer then magnetic trip. Whether 3 half cycles or 80 half cycles trip a breaker has yet to be shown as being responsible for thousands of real world fires.

In fact it was a select few who took the term "short circuit" and added the word "arc" to them.



Then there is the slew of OCPD patents , all of which addressed trip levels

oh ,and....if i failed to mention it, the entire (NEC & CEC) OCPD industry has been obsessively focused on trip levels


They have, but it seems only a select few have been pushing it after attaching the word "arc" to short circuit:

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-37.pdf

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-15.pdf

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/newsletter/KeepingPace-7.pdf




THAT SAID, find me a trade rag article , IAEI dissertation, Manufacturers public memo , NEC document , (et all bureaucratic trade entities) openly opining on the validity of lower trip levels

thx for playin'!....:)

~RJ~


I see it too, and it makes me wonder. It seems like all the concern revolves around trying to get a short circuit to clear in a few cycles without any evidence to suggest fires have resulted from short circuit lasting more then a few cycles.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Agreed. I've been playing phone/e-mail tag with seimens rep who says Whirlpool has been notified of issue with refrigerator. When it goes into energy savings mode it dims the LED lights which sends "noise" over circuit and trips breaker. I have had this issue on 2 houses already. They said only suggestion was a surge suppressor / rf filter on circuit. Which manufacturer is gonna pay for this... the refer or breaker manufacturer............exactly the electrical contractor.


This is a refrigerator problem, not an AFCI problem. The refrigerator manufacturer will pay for the service and repair of the refrigerator.

If you have a customer with any of the following IKEA, Maytag, or Whirlpool FDBM Refrigerators Models, have them contact the manufacturer and tell them to refer to Technical Service Pointer #:W10806461. The manufacturer will send out a service tech with a quick and simple service Kit that takes less than 20-minutes to install. PROBLEM SOLVED.

IX7DDEXDSM00, MFT2574DEM00, MFT2672AEW12, WRF736SDAB11, WRF736SDAM12, 7WF736SDAM12, IX7DDEXDSM01, MFT2574DEM01, MFT2673BEB11, WRF736SDAB12, WRF736SDAM13, 7WF736SDAM13, MFT2672AEB11, MFT2673BEB12, WRF736SDAB13, WRF736SDAW11, MFT2574DEE00, MFT2672AEB12, MFT2673BEM11, WRF736SDAF11, WRF736SDAW12, MFT2574DEE01, MFT2672AEM11, MFT2673BEM12, WRF736SDAF12, WRF736SDAW13, MFT2574DEH00, MFT2672AEM12, MFT2673BEW11, WRF736SDAF13, MFT2574DEH01, MFT2672AEW11, MFT2673BEW12, WRF736SDAM11, 7WF736SDAM11

All of those customers that have purchased these models and registered them will be contacted by the manufacturer to schedule a repair service, free of charge.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
This is a refrigerator problem, not an AFCI problem. The refrigerator manufacturer will pay for the service and repair of the refrigerator.

If you have a customer with any of the following IKEA, Maytag, or Whirlpool FDBM Refrigerators Models, have them contact the manufacturer and tell them to refer to Technical Service Pointer #:W10806461. The manufacturer will send out a service tech with a quick and simple service Kit that takes less than 20-minutes to install. PROBLEM SOLVED.

IX7DDEXDSM00, MFT2574DEM00, MFT2672AEW12, WRF736SDAB11, WRF736SDAM12, 7WF736SDAM12, IX7DDEXDSM01, MFT2574DEM01, MFT2673BEB11, WRF736SDAB12, WRF736SDAM13, 7WF736SDAM13, MFT2672AEB11, MFT2673BEB12, WRF736SDAB13, WRF736SDAW11, MFT2574DEE00, MFT2672AEB12, MFT2673BEM11, WRF736SDAF11, WRF736SDAW12, MFT2574DEE01, MFT2672AEM11, MFT2673BEM12, WRF736SDAF12, WRF736SDAW13, MFT2574DEH00, MFT2672AEM12, MFT2673BEW11, WRF736SDAF13, MFT2574DEH01, MFT2672AEW11, MFT2673BEW12, WRF736SDAM11, 7WF736SDAM11

All of those customers that have purchased these models and registered them will be contacted by the manufacturer to schedule a repair service, free of charge.

Good info thanks! :)

Question though, what part will have to be repaired or replaced?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Tech Service please......

Tech Service please......

This is a refrigerator problem, not an AFCI problem. The refrigerator manufacturer will pay for the service and repair of the refrigerator.

If you have a customer with any of the following IKEA, Maytag, or Whirlpool FDBM Refrigerators Models, have them contact the manufacturer and tell them to refer to Technical Service Pointer #:W10806461. The manufacturer will send out a service tech with a quick and simple service Kit that takes less than 20-minutes to install. PROBLEM SOLVED.

IX7DDEXDSM00, MFT2574DEM00, MFT2672AEW12, WRF736SDAB11, WRF736SDAM12, 7WF736SDAM12, IX7DDEXDSM01, MFT2574DEM01, MFT2673BEB11, WRF736SDAB12, WRF736SDAM13, 7WF736SDAM13, MFT2672AEB11, MFT2673BEB12, WRF736SDAB13, WRF736SDAW11, MFT2574DEE00, MFT2672AEB12, MFT2673BEM11, WRF736SDAF11, WRF736SDAW12, MFT2574DEE01, MFT2672AEM11, MFT2673BEM12, WRF736SDAF12, WRF736SDAW13, MFT2574DEH00, MFT2672AEM12, MFT2673BEW11, WRF736SDAF13, MFT2574DEH01, MFT2672AEW11, MFT2673BEW12, WRF736SDAM11, 7WF736SDAM11

All of those customers that have purchased these models and registered them will be contacted by the manufacturer to schedule a repair service, free of charge.

A most apt and cordial response Mr Holland, i'm moved to the obligatory Xmas card

That said, if we're going to blame shift, please include the means for our viewing audience (I'd wager 10% EC's sea to shining sea here) to specifically dictate to the particular manufacture their exact failing(s)


as always, thx for playin'.....:)

~RJ~
 
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mbrooke

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Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
A most apt and cordial response Mr Holland, i'm moved to the obligatory Xmas card

That said, if we're going to blame shift, please include the means for our viewing audience (I'd wager 10% EC's sea to shining sea here) to specifically dictate to the particular manufacture their exact failing(s)

as always, thx for playin'.....:)

~RJ~




I tried Googling that service paper, but it looks like its only available to service techs. Of course that is Whirlpool's choice, but again why should Whirlpool pay extra (and loose business reputation) over something that is neither a danger or safety risk?
 
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romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I tried Googling that service paper, but it looks like its only available to service techs.

It appears one has answered your query Mr MBrooke>

Technical Service Pointer #:W10806461

The 'LED driver board' being the afci challenged component in ALL models...


Of course that is Whirlpool's choice, but again why should Whirlpool pay extra (and loose business reputation) over something that is neither a danger or safety risk?

The bulletin is dated Sept 15'

So we are most likely witness to recent stop gap activity, vs. a longer thought out approach....


~RJ~
 

klineelectric

Member
Location
FL
Occupation
electrical contractor
Generally we eat it & loose credibility Mr. Kline ....The only reason i know is, our (thankfully) ex-chief inspector amended afci protection in our state's take of the NEC a full cycle ahead of the nation in '99 . He also demanded afci's on all service upgrades (the resultant fallout ending up in a slew of 'formal interpretations' serving to create 210.12B's 6' rule btw)

In short, we've simply a longer history of installs on the horizon for the rest of you>>
siemensafcipanel_zpsbfbb08be.jpg


~RJ~
Yikes! That must be hell with old wiring. Not to mention all of the shared neutrals of yesteryear. I hope that doesn't make into code since we are not yet required to do that.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Yikes! That must be hell with old wiring. Not to mention all of the shared neutrals of yesteryear. I hope that doesn't make into code since we are not yet required to do that.

Chancesare it will. The 2017 NEC is supposed to require all 120 volt 15 and 20amp devices to be AFCI protected.
 

klineelectric

Member
Location
FL
Occupation
electrical contractor
I envy all the areas that are still 3 years behind on the 2014 adoption. :cool:

Florida just adopted 2011 NEC. So I will be paying close attention on here about how those unfortunate EC's with 2014 NEC are coping with the AFCIs in kitchens. Seems like a lot of potential for nuisance trips on those circuits, small motor loads, heating elements etc.
 
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