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Thread: CSST bonding to sub panel

  1. #61
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    I screwed up my last post, (#60). Edit time, timed out.


    Originally Posted by Jamesco
    It's work, why would you want to give it away?

    romex jockey

    high liability, low profit....

    You didn't furnish or install the CSST piping.

    If a termination fitting is installed on the outside of the house connect the ground clamp to the black iron pipe nipple.


    If a circuit breaker malfunctions and doesn't trip in the event of a serous arc fault, and causes a house fire, are you liable for the defective breaker?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTesla76 View Post
    For some reason, the gas utility here still requires the black CSST and black iron to have additional bonding in addition to the bond from the equipment ground. Something to do with lawyers I'm guessing.
    Me to gas man -Get yourself some 6 AWG, there is the GEC - have at it, NEC is satisfied with the EGC of the circuits to gas appliances for bonding the gas piping.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesco View Post
    You didn't furnish or install the CSST piping.

    If a termination fitting is installed on the outside of the house connect the ground clamp to the black iron pipe nipple.


    If a circuit breaker malfunctions and doesn't trip in the event of a serous arc fault, and causes a house fire, are you liable for the defective breaker?
    I ran an EGC to the furnace, water heater, etc. and have complied with the NEC. Installing said bonding is part of the listing instructions of the CSST, I am not a CSST installer.

    Am I liable for a defective breaker? If I installed it, I sort of expect to be the first one a finger gets pointed at, and then I will be pointing finger at supplier/manufacturer.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  3. #63
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    Am I liable for a defective breaker? If I installed it, I sort of expect to be the first one a finger gets pointed at, and then I will be pointing finger at supplier/manufacturer.
    Actually iirc, there's a standard to manually test any OCPD annualy, not that it'd much to hang hat on, given liability is all about deeper pockets.

    But i digress, that notion will have everyone running around bonding anything that doesn't move , FD's will fill out laxidasical reports w/little to no forensics, which turn into stats for the insurance cabal, which manufacturing reps will hammer cmp's with

    We lowly sparks are merely the kickin' post for it all

    ~RJ~

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by romex jockey View Post
    Actually iirc, there's a standard to manually test any OCPD annualy, not that it'd much to hang hat on, given liability is all about deeper pockets. So now I need to increase my price to cover coming back annually to test them? What do I test? Just operate the switch, or actually create a short circuit/ground fault on all of them and make sure they tripped? Then I don't know if it will trip the next time, so I have to do it again and an endless cycle (until it fails anyway) is started

    But i digress, that notion will have everyone running around bonding anything that doesn't move , FD's will fill out laxidasical reports w/little to no forensics, which turn into stats for the insurance cabal, which manufacturing reps will hammer cmp's with

    We lowly sparks are merely the kickin' post for it all

    ~RJ~
    Pretty much
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  5. #65
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    Last fall i gotta call from a lady whom the gas guys apparently put the fear of God into over her newley installed CSST, she was rather...excited....

    So i went and did my thing

    But after this thread, i'm going to rethink that a tad

    thx all

    ~RJ~

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    [QUOTE=kwired;1994552]Me to gas man -Get yourself some 6 AWG, there is the GEC - have at it, NEC is satisfied with the EGC of the circuits to gas appliances for bonding the gas piping.

    Amen

  7. #67
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    While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

    Minnesota's view on bonding CSST

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kec View Post
    While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

    Minnesota's view on bonding CSST
    Some of us have hard enough time keeping up with amendments, AHJ interpretations, etc. as related to NEC, why do we want to keep up with same things as it relates to fuel gas codes, let the HVAC guys earn some of their pay. They certainly aren't afraid of connecting the electric supply to a furnace or AC (and do it wrong)
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kec View Post
    While the old method for bonding CSST required a connection at the main electric panel, this is no longer required in Minnesota. Minnesota’s 2015 Fuel Gas Code uses the 2012 International Fuel Gas Code, which requires CSST to be bonded anywhere along the electrical service grounding electrode system. That means that the bonding conductor for CSST can be connected to the metallic water piping coming into the home, a ground rod at the exterior, or anywhere else on the service grounding electrode system. This change makes it much easier to properly bond CSST. To view the current requirement, click the following link to view Chapter 3 of the 2015 Minnesota Fuel Gas Code, and scroll all the way down to the bottom to view section 310.1.1.

    Minnesota's view on bonding CSST

    The important thing is the CSST is bonded to the grounding electrode system of the electrical service. The ground clamp is connected at the output side of the gas meter or immediately inside the building structure.
    NEC 250.104(B) (2),(3),(4), and (5) says the same thing. Though there is no mention of CSST gas piping. It can be black iron pipe. It shall be bonded.

    What is a pipe that is buried in the earth that is connected to an EGC of a branch circuit?
    Basically it's an Auxiliary Grounding Electrode.

    What does Mike Holt say about Auxiliary Grounding Electrodes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuDqXFvRv94

    NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code. The EGC is not an effective bonding means for an earthed metallic service gas pipe that is clearly an earth connected electrode.

    If #(1) is removed from the NEC 250.104 (B), who is responsible for bonding the gas service metallic pipe/line electrode?

  10. #70
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    [QUOTE=Jamesco;1994641]
    NEC 250.104 (B) (1) should be removed from the code.
    The EGC is not an effective bonding means for an earthed metallic service gas pipe that is clearly an earth connected electrode.
    The gas pipe is not an electrode. There is a dielectric fitting at the meter that separates the interior piping from the exterior and art. 250 tells us we cannot use gas pipe as an electrode

    250.52(B) Not Permitted for Use as Grounding Electrodes. The
    following systems and materials shall not be used as grounding
    electrodes:
    (1) Metal underground gas piping systems
    (2) Aluminum
    (3) The structures and structural reinforcing steel described
    in 680.26(B)(1) and (B)(2)
    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
    I can't help it if I'm lucky



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